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Paris under attack

So people realize that ISIS has point-blank vowed to kill off the feeling of Muslims co-existing peacefully with non Muslims? They are trying to leave Muslims with two choices-- leave the faith, or join their extremist interpretation.


So you not realize how a violent right-wing Islamophobic reaction feeds this narrative of theirs? Come on you guys.
 
So because maybe 100 terrorists may join a flock of ten million refugees, we are to deny the refugees? Idiotic.

No not because of that. It is because from million of the refugees maybe 100 will accept western ways of living and will integrate. Rest will want to create mini Pakistan, Afghanistan or Syria in European countries - and that is not acceptable.
 
Terrorists will terrorize even without granting refuge to refugees. The problem that needs to be investigated is a look at what is causing these terrorist plots. Why are these people terrorizing. Why are their recruitment pitches so effective. What roles are we playing in enhancing terrorism?

If we just say "well, they're crazy Muslims!" The approach will be as effective as it has been thus far.
I like you Dal, even though we are butting heads a lot ideologically. The way I see it the government's primary responsibility is to protect it's own citizens, not the refugees. Yes, that's cold, but this is a time of crisis and we must take things a step at a time. Just using America as an example, it's likely that we already have citizens who might try to do our population harm from within, but it's far more likely that non-citizens would take this step. So the first thing any country that wants to get this problem under control must do is secure its borders. We cannot have people flooding into our country illegally. France can't afford to have this happen either, even if the ratio is only 100 bad guys to millions of refugees. The reason is that it doesn't take anywhere near 100 terrorists to wreak devastating havoc.

I agree that wallpapering the places they live in bombs is not a good solution, and I agree that stopping the supply of money and arms is paramount. All of the questions that you ask are appropriate, but we have to take the obvious steps to prevent future attacks. It is a terrible dilemma this world is faced with. I love France and visit often. I'm afraid of how much it is going to be changed by these events.
 
No not because of that. It is because from million of the refugees maybe 100 will accept western ways of living and will integrate. Rest will want to create mini Pakistan, Afghanistan or Syria in European countries - and that is not acceptable.
Chinatown, but no Pakitown for MVP.

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we are to deny the refugees?

Yes, at least not at the numbers they are doing it now. Selfish, but better for any Western country long term interest. Refugee process should be organized differently. There should be way better screening and selection ways established.
I know it is painful topic for you and I feel sorry for those truly good people who are seeking better life. And I do not deny wrong doings of USA in years in the region which lead to this. But what is happening in Europe now is not acceptable and it will result in world war 3 at some point.
 
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MVP you sounding pretty racist.

Should we ban guns for white men since they commit the most mass shootings?

Kind of the equivalent logic to not taking Muslim refugees because a few might be terrorist.

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MVP you sounding pretty racist.
Should we ban guns for white men since they commit the most mass shootings?
Kind of the equivalent logic to not taking Muslim refugees because a few might be terrorist.

Where did I say Muslim? And how is that racist? Protecting country's national identity and safety should be a priority. Especially for small countries. That's why Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Czech republic and most of other Eastern European countries are refusing to take any refugees. They know what could happen.
 
Germans are freaking out about all of the refugees being allowed in.

This is not true for the majority of the population(FYI Germany is the only country of it's large neighbour countries that has a voting population that votes for "new age" racists/nazis below 20%(In Germany it's in fact below 2%)

Numerous people saw it happening long time ago. You let all these people from Africa and Middle East come to western countries hoping that they will all integrate and become normal part of western society. Big mistake. It only takes small part of them to get radicalized and start **** like that and more will follow. And Europe is accepting more and more Syrian refugees now...( half of them are not even Syrian or real war refugees). It is going to get even more ugly. Europe is on a edge of real war.
Only solution in Europe right now is to secure borders, do not accept any more refugees or immigrants from Africa or Middle East and clean up the mess they created. I am afraid it is too late now though. My heart bleeds for once beautiful continent who will soon will be overrun by dark ages. I am very afraid with liberal win in Canada it will start happening here as well. Our PM Turdoe already promised to bring in 25.000 refugees by January next year. And we regular people will pay for it.:mad:

If you punish all the good people from these countries for the deeds of those who are brainwashed by some crazy religious ppl, what good does that do long term for intercultural relationships?
If you were randomly born in a country that was in war, wouldn't you wish you had some place you could try to start a new life?

Think of all the "washed" jeans of the first generation you wore. You know where they come from? Kurdish part of Turkey and Syria. You know what happened with the workers that worked for Western corporations there? They developed lung diseases and cancer after only a few year at an alarming rate. Did these corporations knew they were exploiting + killing ppl there? Absolutely.
So you and/or your friends most likely not only benefited from the misery caused in these regions, you also deny a super small portion of real human beings that are prosecuted for either political(Assad) or religious(IS) reasons refuge that your country agreed upon as part of UN resolutions.
So in truth your government just pays back a portion of what mainly corporations and the people living in your country profited off of those people.
I'm always amazed how ignorant some people are when it comes to "globalization".

Joe, this may turn out to not be the case, so often the quality of intelligence/ info is off in the early going, but the thinking is French born nationals may have been involved. Of course there will be "revenge" incidents. A refuge camp in Calais, France was set afire last night, for instance.

What strikes me here is the colossal intelligence failure represented by a plot that had to involve dozens of people. Apparently, American intelligence did not recognize it. French intelligence missed it. This is really a stunning failure where the intelligence services are concerned.

Edit: my wife was telling me that, in one instance, a village of 100 people in Germany was selected for the settlement of 750 Syrian refugees! Seriously, ya gotta do better then that!! It is indeed, as you state, a terrible dilemma....

The way I see it, France has been primarily targeted in the recent past(There are multiple reasons probably, one popular is their military/political stance) and my thinking is that the USA, England and Germany would have been just as large targets in the past and they largely avoided incidents like this while in France there were 3 successful within 365 days. So counter terrorism seems to be unable to anticipate/investigate situations like these.
News reports quote the French intelligence agency that they knew something was up, but they didn't know more details.
Why the fudge do you not err on the side of caution when multiple threats are being made in advance of the football match?
At the Austrian border apparently a Montenegrin arms trafficker was stopped last week with automatic guns, semi automatic guns and different explosives heading to Paris(Though it is unknown if that's the prisoner's statement or conclusion after the incident)
How many hints do these agencies need to determine that something big may be imminent.

The bad solutions when it comes to refugee homes are that the government gambled on the situation solving itself(aka Russians agreeing to drop Assad) and other EU countries other than the nordic/scandinavian actually offering asylum. So right now there's a serious shortage of homes(in general there is in Germany, since the government scaled back social housing projects a lot in the past) that fulfill security standards and there's limited legal possibilities to take free houses away from their owners to temporarily give them to refugees.
Then there's corporations that literally practice extortion against cities by offering living space for at least twice the price it would score on the open market. I know that first hand.

Germany has accepted more than 1M refugees this year alone and 300k last year. A quarter of those are usually being sent back to their original countries(Albania and Kosovo mostly). A quarter of the refugees are Syrian, a third from Iraq and Afghanistan.
It's not an easy challenge to integrate them and offer them education. Financially, even if the stream of refugees doesn't stop, Germany has already determined it's healthy enough to mount this challenge. The European problem is that most of the rich countries are acting completely irresponsible and some countries that shouldn't have been accepted into the EU showcase why they should have been a no-go in the first place(I'm looking at you Hungary)
There's way too much corruption going on in that organization and that will be the real "European test".
 
If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

As long as this version of Islam survives, nobody is secure. What's a few hundred thousand refuges compared to tens of millions of Muslims already living in Europe? Terrorism is easy. All it takes is one person with the will and a knife.

I don't know how to turn Muslims toward a more reasonable path. It is what the world should be thinking about and working at. But there are no easy solution and too many conflicting interests. The best thing that can be done is stopping military intervention in the region that seems only to make things worse and worse, pull financial and political support for the awful regimes that fuel the conflicts, and covertly support budding liberalization movements whenever they spring forth. But like I said, too many conflicting interests. The situation won't get better for a long time.
 
If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

As long as this version of Islam survives, nobody is secure. What's a few hundred thousand refuges compared to tens of millions of Muslims already living in Europe? Terrorism is easy. All it takes is one person with the will and a knife.

I don't know how to turn Muslims toward a more reasonable path. It is what the world should be thinking about and working at. But there are no easy solution and too many conflicting interests. The best thing that can be done is stopping military intervention in the region that seems only to make things worse and worse, pull financial and political support for the awful regimes that fuel the conflicts, and covertly support budding liberalization movements whenever they spring forth. But like I said, too many conflicting interests. The situation won't get better for a long time.

I agree, interventionism in the area seems to have made things worse. I don't think American citizens would be very happy if a foreign country dropped bombs in populated areas of the US, no matter how well targeted those bomb strikes were. The US needs to hop off the police of the world train. Yet meanwhile:

https://thinkprogress.org/world/201...-with-more-tolerance-for-civilian-casualties/

I mean seriously, more tolerance for civilian casualties? Sick world we live in...
 
While I'm sure you're right that the actual refugees had noting to do with this, it is simply a fact that the flood of refugees made it easier for the terrorists to hide and organize in plain sight. It is truly a terrible dilemma we are faced with. The proper reaction is to embrace and care for the good people as much as we are able, while destroying the bad people. Unfortunately it is extremely difficult to tell the difference until the bad group is doing something evil. By then it will usually be too late.

Well, I may need to stand corrected, Joe:


https://www.slate.com/blogs/the_sla..._have_entered_europe_as_a_syrian_refugee.html

"In one piece of evidence that could end up pushing a dramatic shift in how Europe handles the ongoing refugee crisis, the Syrian passport found next to the body of one of the suicide bombers was registered on the Greek island of Leros. The owner of the passport was a young man who apparently arrived in Leros with a group of 69 refugees, a source tells Reuters. It is so far unclear whether the passport was later checked in other European countries, points out Bloomberg. Some are urging caution with the information, noting there’s no confirmation the person who held the passport was actually an attacker."
 
I like you Dal, even though we are butting heads a lot ideologically. The way I see it the government's primary responsibility is to protect it's own citizens, not the refugees. Yes, that's cold, but this is a time of crisis and we must take things a step at a time. Just using America as an example, it's likely that we already have citizens who might try to do our population harm from within, but it's far more likely that non-citizens would take this step. So the first thing any country that wants to get this problem under control must do is secure its borders. We cannot have people flooding into our country illegally. France can't afford to have this happen either, even if the ratio is only 100 bad guys to millions of refugees. The reason is that it doesn't take anywhere near 100 terrorists to wreak devastating havoc.

I agree that wallpapering the places they live in bombs is not a good solution, and I agree that stopping the supply of money and arms is paramount. All of the questions that you ask are appropriate, but we have to take the obvious steps to prevent future attacks. It is a terrible dilemma this world is faced with. I love France and visit often. I'm afraid of how much it is going to be changed by these events.


As far as securing the borders is concerned, I think the actual first step is to facilitate legal immigration at the scale that immigration is happening illegally and legally. Once you are allowing immigration legally at the rate that it is actually happening you can then use your legal immigration infrastructure to screen out threats. And since you don't have waves of harmless people risking their lives to cross your boarders illegally anymore it should be easier to actually secure the boarders.

But that's never what I hear. All I ever hear is how illegal immigration is illegal (their braking our laws! oh my) and that we need to shut it down. And whenever I've tried to have a rational discussion about it with someone supporting the securing of our boarders it becomes quickly apparent that they cannot accept any of the methods that allow "those people" into "their country" and it seems pretty obvious that they just don't want "them" here.

Well, if that's true, have fun standing against the tide. But it's never going to work. We need to allow the innocent people who want to be here to be here. This idea that we own the opportunities, the liberties and the security that exist here is wrong, in my opinion. It belongs to humanity. We're all humans.
 
If you guys only knew how awesome Syria was before the Salafi cancer took hold. I've been there 4 times. Awesome people and culture. Easily my favorite in the Middle East. Great night life, unique art scene, , mind blowing historical sites, cute girls, nice beaches, and the best food on Earth. Despite what MVP thinks, Europe would be lucky to have them. They're not some backward cave dwellers from the stone age.

Hey Siro, I never said Syrians in particular are a problem. I read and interview from refugee camp worker in Germany and he specifically mentioned that Syrians and Eritreans are the best and would be easiest to integrate in Europe. The problem is that fake Syrian passports are now the best business in Middle East and thousands of people entering Europe and pretending to be Syrians have no passports or ID's at all! How you can sort them out and make sure that it is good people coming? It is unfortunate for good people but situation is like with cancer - you cut a lot of healthy tissue with it in order to get rid of it.
 
Where did I say Muslim? And how is that racist? Protecting country's national identity and safety should be a priority. Especially for small countries. That's why Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, Czech republic and most of other Eastern European countries are refusing to take any refugees. They know what could happen.

This, to me, is the national identity of the U.S.

liberty_island_and_statue_of_liberty_wallpaper_-_1024x768.jpg


Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!
 
This, to me, is the national identity of the U.S.

liberty_island_and_statue_of_liberty_wallpaper_-_1024x768.jpg


Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

So how many refugees Obama promised to take?
 
Hey Siro, I never said Syrians in particular are a problem. I read and interview from refugee camp worker in Germany and he specifically mentioned that Syrians and Eritreans are the best and would be easiest to integrate in Europe. The problem is that fake Syrian passports are now the best business in Middle East and thousands of people entering Europe and pretending to be Syrians have no passports or ID's at all! How you can sort them out and make sure that it is good people coming? It is unfortunate for good people but situation is like with cancer - you cut a lot of healthy tissue with it in order to get rid of it.

And how many legit refuges (this healthy tissue you cut away) will be forced to join the ranks of ISIS once they're turned away with nothing to do and nowhere to go? How many of those will sneak to Europe illegally to carry out attacks, or use social media to convince European Muslims to do their bidding for them? It didn't take a refuge crisis for terrorists to strike in the NYC, London, or Madrid.

Your suggestions may save a few lives. At best. But it is no solution. It is just a reaction that might give you comfort, but the world is not better off with closed borders than it was with open ones.
 
The problem isn't Islamic people.
The problem is the US keep bumping off the leaders who kept this under control.

There is no Isis if Saddam is still kicking.
There'd be no Isis in Libiya under Gadaffi.
Next on the agenda Assad.
 
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