This season will vindicate Ty Corbin

[b_line]

As a HC, all evidence points to Ty's strong resemblance to a turd. Frank's points of defense are cherry-picked and misrepresented. Ty failed here, Ty failed so badly in Sacto that they bounced him in short order calling him a "mistake". Ty showed zero evidence of improving the Jazz. They finished way way down in most teams stats if I remember right. Frank just does not know when to admit defeat.

I don't know if you can call what Ty did in Sacramento failing without putting a huge asterisk on it for the fact of the ownership failing miserably as well. If that is going to be your point about Ty failing in Sacramento, then George Karl is just as bad as Ty. Hell, he's probably even worse than Ty. If you want to say Ty sucks as a coach, then at least use some examples that work, like playing Richard Jefferson too much, or not subbing anyone in when they were fresh and the players had played double overtime. There are a lot of boneheaded moves that Ty made with the Jazz, but the situation in Sacramento is so rotten that Ty could only look better by leaving that place.

 

[franklin]

That is not actually correct. The defense started to improve back in January before the Kanter trade. It didn't explode till Kanter was traded but the trend had already started.

From Jan till the Allstar break the Jazz allowed 95.33 ppg from a quick add up. That is still good for #1 in the NBA by .1 a point (current rankings). That is 21 games with Kanter. During that time Kanter played 27.1 mpg. (He actually sat out 4 games in this stretch with that ankle sprain)

In 2013-14 Cobin played Kanter 26.7 mpg and the Jazz allowed 102.2 ppg. So the Quinn started to improve the D while Kanter was getting roughly equal burn.


Yes Corbin was handicapped by players such as JLIII and Biedrins. But to say Snyder didn't improve the D till Kanter left is not correct.

That is about as deep and insightful post as you are going to get from me. Hope it helps bring the discussion you and GVC want. I won't have time to reply so in depth again for the day.

That's clearly correlated with the December emergence of Rudy. In fact, here's the Gobert Effect in graphical form based on minutes per game, by month, across Utah's ppg allowed, by month:

That r-squared of .8048 is an incredibly tight correlation given the nature of the game and low sample size. I was surprised it was over .5 or .6.





hmm, don't know why those won't embed. Try the link: https://s1092.photobucket.com/user/poindexter3/media/Gobert Effect_zpsnm7r198z.jpg.html

 

[Stoked]

That's clearly correlated with the December emergence of Rudy. In fact, here's the Gobert Effect in graphical form based on minutes per game, by month, across Utah's ppg allowed, by month:

That r-squared of .8048 is an incredibly tight correlation given the nature of the game and low sample size. I was surprised it was over .5 or .6.





hmm, don't know why those won't embed. Try the link: https://s1092.photobucket.com/user/poindexter3/media/Gobert Effect_zpsnm7r198z.jpg.html

But you stated that Snyder was not able to produce that till Kanter was traded and that is not correct. Yes Gobert started to emerge (not just him but players like Exum and Millsap as well) and that's what helped spur this. But Kanter was still playing at the same mpg and Snyder had the D improving while Kanter was here.

I already acknowledged that Corbin had less talent (espcially defensively) to work with than Snyder did.

What I would be most interested to see is what did Kanter's D stats look like during this trend. Did he improve from December on?

 

[franklin]

frank, would you honestly take Corbin over Snyder? I haven't followed this thread at all really, so I don't know if you're arguing that Corbin > Snyder, or just that Corbin isn't as bad as he's made out to be.

No. I don't enjoy watching Ty's style of play (which was the initial reason the hate started). Quin seems to get the players to play with more cohesion. I don't know how much of that comes from him and how much comes from the players having optimism and something to play for for once. The latter is clearly the bigger portion IMO (i.e. the Hayward interview with PK "you see it").

He's also much more passionate in game, and very transparent/not defensive in interviews. Being the opposite in interviews was something I hated about Corbin.

 

[franklin]

But you stated that Snyder was not able to produce that till Kanter was traded and that is not correct. Yes Gobert started to emerge (not just him but players like Exum and Millsap as well) and that's what helped spur this. But Kanter was still playing at the same mpg and Snyder had the D improving while Kanter was here.

You're splitting hairs. The main point still stands.

 

[Gameface]

People often say that franklin is saying things he's not saying and completely ignoring what he's actually saying.

I didn't like Corbin. I gave him a long long leash because there were a lot of external factors that contributed to his lack of success. Ultimately I decided he wasn't a good coach (because I'm like qualified to assess such things). But franklin has pointed out things he did do well. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Corbin could have been the wrong guy for the job and still have a few things he did well. People don't want to hear that, though. They want to crucify Corbin and condemn every last thing he ever did. Pretty simple way to look at things, but oh well.

 

[mrob]

I don't know how much of that comes from him and how much comes from the players having optimism and something to play for for once.

Does it matter if it's the X's and O's or if it's just an environment that the players have bought into? Either way, it's Quin that has brought it to the team. I happen to think that Quin has already shown himself to be a better coach than Ty, however that's not saying too much. But it remains to be seen if he will actually mature into a great coach. For now, I'm happy to see that he is progressing with this group of young guys.

 

[Stoked]

You're splitting hairs. The main point still stands.

If you wanted to determine a difference between Snyder and Corbin on D I'd campare Kanter, Burke, Favor and Haywards D #s from last year v. this year. Who got them to produce and who didn't?

Corbin never had a fair shake here or in Sactown (especially there) but imo Snyder is clearly better simply by the improvement he has been able to generate that Corbin has not. And Corbin's team quit and Snyders is full of fight.

But as GF said, Corbin wasn't nearly as bad (I was guilty somewhat as well) as he was potrayed.

 

[zman1527]

I don't know if you can call what Ty did in Sacramento failing without putting a huge asterisk on it for the fact of the ownership failing miserably as well. If that is going to be your point about Ty failing in Sacramento, then George Karl is just as bad as Ty. Hell, he's probably even worse than Ty. If you want to say Ty sucks as a coach, then at least use some examples that work, like playing Richard Jefferson too much, or not subbing anyone in when they were fresh and the players had played double overtime. There are a lot of boneheaded moves that Ty made with the Jazz, but the situation in Sacramento is so rotten that Ty could only look better by leaving that place.

How about this then? How did Ty's team do at the end of his time here? Showing some improvement? Or how about absolutely cratering and finishing with horrid team stats? Ty had challenges and had several years to deal with those challenges. By objective measurement, his team at the end of last year was bad, very bad. So not only was he not able to improve the team, they got worse during his term.

You want to defend Ty and frank? Then do not give excuses for why utterly failed, please point to some significant team improvement that you can attribute to Ty.

And PS: Sacto called him a mistake, not me.

 

[gregbroncs]

People often say that franklin is saying things he's not saying and completely ignoring what he's actually saying.

I didn't like Corbin. I gave him a long long leash because there were a lot of external factors that contributed to his lack of success. Ultimately I decided he wasn't a good coach (because I'm like qualified to assess such things). But franklin has pointed out things he did do well. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. Corbin could have been the wrong guy for the job and still have a few things he did well. People don't want to hear that, though. They want to crucify Corbin and condemn every last thing he ever did. Pretty simple way to look at things, but oh well.

He stated in that post I quoted that Corbin would be better for this team this year. I did not put those words in his mouth. He has said a lot of other things about Corbin that are equally laughable. And that is why a lot of us dislike Franklin. He's not just defending Corbin against irrational hate. He fuels it.
.
Corbin did a few things well, very few. I'll admit to being a Corbin Hater. I gave him 2 full season's before I jumped on that bandwagon. What I saw was a coach that routinely got outcoached. That was terrible at some of the most basic aspects of coaching (end of games, adjustments, playing to the players strengths, etc.) The whole Corbin saga would barely be mentioned anymore on this site if Franklin would drop it and admit he was Wrong or intentionally trolling. He can't honestly believe anything that happened this season vindicated Ty Corbin. Yet he's still arguing it.

 

[b_line]

How about this then? How did Ty's team do at the end of his time here? Showing some improvement? Or how about absolutely cratering and finishing with horrid team stats? Ty had challenges and had several years to deal with those challenges. By objective measurement, his team at the end of last year was bad, very bad. So not only was he not able to improve the team, they got worse during his term.

You want to defend Ty and frank? Then do not give excuses for why utterly failed, please point to some significant team improvement that you can attribute to Ty.

And PS: Sacto called him a mistake, not me.

Not defending Ty. The team sucked horribly at the end of the year. But that team sucked anyways. They had such a terrible roster that they could not help but suck. I liked Ty in his first full season as head coach. I started to see later that he was not the guy we wanted coaching the team long term. Ty seemed to get worse under pressure. No one here, including Frank is saying that they want Ty back, or like him as a head coach.

If you are going to call Ty a bad coach though, at least recognize the situation that he was put under. He led an Al Jefferson led team to the best record Al Jefferson has ever experienced, and then he was given a terrible roster meant for tanking to get a high pick. In Sacto, they are just a total mess. They might have called Corbin a mistake, but that is next to meaningless, as they have made nothing but mistakes in the last decade.

 

[gregbroncs]

If you wanted to determine a difference between Snyder and Corbin on D I'd campare Kanter, Burke, Favor and Haywards D #s from last year v. this year. Who got them to produce and who didn't?

Corbin never had a fair shake here or in Sactown (especially there) but imo Snyder is clearly better simply by the improvement he has been able to generate that Corbin has not. And Corbin's team quit and Snyders is full of fight.

But as GF said, Corbin wasn't nearly as bad (I was guilty somewhat as well) as he was potrayed.

I don't think there is a good argument that Corbin did not get a fair shake here. Maybe in Sactown but here he was given chances and different challenges each year and he failed most of those challenges. Quin was given a far more daunting task this year that Corbin ever was. He had a younger roster, with no bench, and no real vets. Yet the team has outperformed what was expected. I don't think you can argue that in a single season under Corbin that the team outperformed reasonable expectations.
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Even in Sactown that end of game fubar and after game interview may have been his final downfall. That was inexcusable by a veteran NBA coach.

 

[Gameface]

He stated in that post I quoted that Corbin would be better for this team this year. I did not put those words in his mouth. He has said a lot of other things about Corbin that are equally laughable. And that is why a lot of us dislike Franklin. He's not just defending Corbin against irrational hate. He fuels it.
.
Corbin did a few things well, very few. I'll admit to being a Corbin Hater. I gave him 2 full season's before I jumped on that bandwagon. What I saw was a coach that routinely got outcoached. That was terrible at some of the most basic aspects of coaching (end of games, adjustments, playing to the players strengths, etc.) The whole Corbin saga would barely be mentioned anymore on this site if Franklin would drop it and admit he was Wrong or intentionally trolling. He can't honestly believe anything that happened this season vindicated Ty Corbin. Yet he's still arguing it.

Fair enough. I do think at times franklin is poking a stick in our collective eye just for kicks, but he makes many very solid points that his haters refuse to acknowledge.

 

[Stoked]

Sounds about right to me. With all the improvement, rough start last year, and a team now not intentionally designed to fail, I think if Snyder can push that up to 40 wins then I'll be wrong about Corbin.


Keep in mind I didn't set the parameter, the fan base did. Why is everyone like Core4 trying to whitewash everything they wrote about it last season? Saying the Jazz were a 48 win 6th seed if Hornacek were here.

Going back and re-reading this thread. The bolded jumped out at me.

That might happen.

 

[gregbroncs]

Going back and re-reading this thread. The bolded jumped out at me.

That might happen.

To me that was an unrealistic expectation set by him to prove he was right. The fact that the Jazz are getting close to it and he is still arguing that Corbin was in fact vindicated is a big part of the problem. If he does admit he was wrong if they get to that total I'll be shocked. I've seen no indication that Franklin will ever admit he was mistaken in any way. If they don't get to that total he proclaim victory, even though it was his unrealistic expectation to begin with.

 

[Nate505]

Not defending Ty. The team sucked horribly at the end of the year. But that team sucked anyways. They had such a terrible roster that they could not help but suck. I liked Ty in his first full season as head coach. I started to see later that he was not the guy we wanted coaching the team long term. Ty seemed to get worse under pressure. No one here, including Frank is saying that they want Ty back, or like him as a head coach.

If you are going to call Ty a bad coach though, at least recognize the situation that he was put under. He led an Al Jefferson led team to the best record Al Jefferson has ever experienced, and then he was given a terrible roster meant for tanking to get a high pick. In Sacto, they are just a total mess. They might have called Corbin a mistake, but that is next to meaningless, as they have made nothing but mistakes in the last decade.

Yeah, his situation wasn't great. He didn't help anything either. He played vets way too much. Quin actually plays rookies and gives them multiple chances, even when things don't go well. Under Ty how many minutes would Exum have got...and if there were some scrub like JL3 does anyone want to wager how many minutes he would have got over Exum?

This is all belied by the larger point...that this thread is called "This Season will Vindicate Ty Corbin." Well, has it?

 

[gregbroncs]

Yeah, his situation wasn't great. He didn't help anything either. He played vets way too much. Quin actually plays rookies and gives them multiple chances, even when things don't go well. Under Ty how many minutes would Exum have got...and if there were some scrub like JL3 does anyone want to wager how many minutes he would have got over Exum?

This is all belied by the larger point...that this thread is called "This Season will Vindicate Ty Corbin." Well, has it?

According to the OP it has.

 

[Stoked]

I don't think there is a good argument that Corbin did not get a fair shake here. Maybe in Sactown but here he was given chances and different challenges each year and he failed most of those challenges. Quin was given a far more daunting task this year that Corbin ever was. He had a younger roster, with no bench, and no real vets. Yet the team has outperformed what was expected. I don't think you can argue that in a single season under Corbin that the team outperformed reasonable expectations.
.
Even in Sactown that end of game fubar and after game interview may have been his final downfall. That was inexcusable by a veteran NBA coach.

By fair shake I mean a legit chance to win. The Jazz signed and traded for, players like Rush, Biedrins and JLIII. That team has no chance of winning.

Glad we have Snyder and I think he is the right man for the job. But Corbin's failures are as much on the FO shoulders as his own.

In short: this season will not vindicate Corbin in any way. It also will do barely anything to vindicate his haters. He's gone and good luck to him.

 

[Nate505]

Going back and re-reading this thread. The bolded jumped out at me.

That might happen.

That tells you everything. Everything.

He gave Quin what everyone at the time thought was a totally unrealistic expectation to hit (being 2 games below .500 with a team that is the youngest in the NBA and had at the time was thought of no bench whatsoever), and Quin just might do it.

 

[b_line]

Yeah, his situation wasn't great. He didn't help anything either. He played vets way too much. Quin actually plays rookies and gives them multiple chances, even when things don't go well. Under Ty how many minutes would Exum have got...and if there were some scrub like JL3 does anyone want to wager how many minutes he would have got over Exum?

This is all belied by the larger point...that this thread is called "This Season will Vindicate Ty Corbin." Well, has it?

lol, can you imagine Ty coaching this years team? He's thinking "I don't want to play any more damn rookies" then he looks at the bench and realizes he can only play like 5 non rookies. "Trey, Gordon, Derrick, you guys ready for 48 minutes?"