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We are all just a bunch of whiny b*tches

If it was that easy, why the **** aren't the other 20 teams doing it? You know, most of the league?

Because they took bigger risks.

Sometimes, a high risk ends in a high reward.

I doubt that the Jazz really want to become contenders. The front office still seems conservative and scared. They have a different philosophy.

I'd rather have some losing seasons but more titles than constantly mediocre seasons but no titles.

It's not just about making the 8th seed and the Playoffs, it's about winning Championships.

A winning record is quite important, sure. You need the right environment, especially for the young players (which went wrong in Toronto, Sacramento, Charlotte and so on) but you have to be ready to take a bigger step and risk a losing season or two as a small market team if it means the best for us in the longterm. It's more than just obvious!

Millsap, Jefferson, Foye and Mo are only the answer for the 8th/9th seed each season. This means getting kicked out in the Playoffs in the first round. I'd rather lose a season or two and let Favors, Kanter, Hayward, Burks and other draft picks play a bigger role and develop/grow more.

Only an All-Star player or a great veteran star player can help this team and start but it's not the Jefferson type of players that will get us anywhere to the next level. If they want to bring a veteran, he has to come off the bench.

Our young talents are too good and have too much potential to waste them going forward.
 
The assumption being made is that it's an even field in every way. In that case, 9th might be considered mediocre. I'd argue that the field is far from even, though.

so, Yay? Are you looking for Yays?
 
I see a distinct flaw in the philosophy and direction of the franchise since 2010-11. The Jazz ended up with more assets & lottery talent than they ever had on their roster in franchise history, yet they placed a premium on going for the 8th seed - not just once (more understandable in 2011-12) but twice (borderline insanity in 2012-13). They have a team full of free agents yet they not only hang onto them - they play them ahead of the players who will be the future of the franchise. If the talent between vets/young players is close - it makes sense to go w/the vets if you've got serious playoff aspirations. If it's close and you're a .500 team - it makes no sense to play the vets, especially when they're going to be free agents...and it's not even like these guys are rookies, they're 2nd&3rd-year players whose play has improved each season, who keep the Jazz competitive in games, yet their yearly mpg averages are ridiculous.
THAT's the issue for me: current management and coaching philosophies - not the Jazz's performance over the past decade.

Beautifully put. Thank you.
 
And we were super-happy before this?
A whole hell of a lot happier then. This franchise is holding to Larry's values without Larry's desire to win. He almost fired Sloan tons of times and I actually think Jackass would never have been hired with Larry. Or at the least being fired would be an option.
 
And the right way is what?

When you are not a championship team you play the guys that may get you closer in the future. Or you be really bad for a short period of time. Don't forget we got Deron by being really bad. The Spurs got Duncan by being really bad. ETC. ETC. ETC.
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The last 2 years should have been about developing our youth and figuring out what they are and what we need. Instead they were wasted on barely making the playoffs and not learning enough about our players of the future. If we were stuck with the same record we have now but Favors and Hayward were getting 32+ minutes a game while Kanter and Burks were getting 24+ MPG very few here would be pissed off. We'd probably be really excited for the future of this team and enjoying an exciting ride to finish the season. But as of now it feels like a complete waste of time.
 
You know what though, he's kind of got a point. We're not going anywhere this season. We know that. Okay, we all understand. That's done. Next season we'll (hopefully) turn the keys over to the young guys, and we'll probably have a losing season, and that'll be necessary. SO knowing this, why can't we just relax and chill for the rest of the season? There's only a few games left. We have a chance to stop the Lakers from making the playoffs. Let's root for that. If we're going to set the standard as: Championship every year or bust, you're going to be unhappy. For a team like us to compete, we're going to have to build slowly over time.

So let's just try to enjoy the ride a little. **** the lakers.
 
And we were super-happy before this?

We won't be PERFECTLY happy until we have a legit contender. That's the entire reason most of us follow the Jazz. This isn't a mandatory sentence. We have established an emotional connection to the organization, and we root for them to best all other competing entities. Consequently, we still had complaints back then. Boozer's matador defense. Memo's becoming more of a liability as he got older and slower. Sloan's rotation and mentality. And other aspects that prevented the team from becoming what we wanted it to become.

But we were far happier than we are now. There is no comparison really. Even your unimpressive 9th place tie sounds really good now. Where do we stand at the moment? 15th?
 
We won't be PERFECTLY happy until we have a legit contender. That's the entire reason most of us follow the Jazz. This isn't a mandatory sentence. We have established an emotional connection to the organization, and we root for them to best all other competing entities. Consequently, we still had complaints back then. Boozer's matador defense. Memo's becoming more of a liability as he got older and slower. Sloan's rotation and mentality. And other aspects that prevented the team from becoming what we wanted it to become.

But we were far happier than we are now. There is no comparison really. Even your unimpressive 9th place tie sounds really good now. Where do we stand at the moment? 15th?


I can understand the criticism when the opportunity arises, but I think some of us are truly going overboard-- particularly when half of our team isn't gonna play here next year on account of free agency.



For example: How many people celebrated Mo Williams' dagger tonight? The only poster who seems to consistently point it out is one of the board trolls/alts.

To me, this is a problem. Yes, the FO deserves every bit of criticism, and everyone has their individual right to hold their opinion on how the Jazz franchise conducts its affairs.

At the same time though, don't pout so much that you can't even enjoy a three point bomb to slam a team who stole our draft pick the year earlier in THEIR arena, on the night where they were anticipating to celebrate their second playoff berth since 1994.



I dunno. I feel like people bitch too much to enjoy things in life at times.
 
As with most faulty arguments, the OP simply makes a general statement without addressing any of the specific complaints.

What specific complaint? I'm just asking why do the Jazz fans seem like such a dour bunch, when we were one of the most successful teams in the league for 2 decades, managed to stay in the top 10 after they left, traded a franchise player(and the rest of the starting lineup, mind) and are still looking at consecutive playoffs seasons only a year removed from blowing up the team.

I'm not talking about right now. I'm talking about the fact that for the last 10 years, it's been nothing but negativity on this board(and its ancestors). Boozer's always hurt. Jerry's not playing rookie Deron. Boozer's not hurt, but he can't play D. Andrei is overpaid and complaining too much. Andrei should be traded but the idiotic FO is letting him expire. Boozer hasn't been traded. Okur and Harpring were extended for a stupid reason. Jerry Sloan needs to retire. Corbin needs to get promoted. We should trade Deron. We should not trade Deron. We should draft Jimmer over Burke. We should draft a PG over Kanter. We should tank. We should play the young guys more. We should fire Corbin, he sucks. We should tank.

Seeing as so many of the board members are not happy unless we're contending, are you telling me you've spent the last 10 years watching the Jazz and being unhappy? What the **** is the point, then? Why bother? If nothing but contention will do, haven't the last 10 years been nothing but frustration and anger for you?
 
A bit off topic. But do any of you think we would be in this same situation if Larry hadn't passed away?

No. I think Larry keeps Sloan, gets rid of Al and we are competing for a top 4 spot this year with Kanter, Favors, and Hayward. I think Mo and Marvin are completely different players in Johnson's offense.
 
The problem isn't in wins. The problem isn't in competitiveness. The problem is settling. Everything is supposed to be leading to something better. We put up with the lean post-Stockton and Malone years because we thought it would lead to something bigger and better. That was the reality. 2003 and 2004 and 2005 was only tolerated because it meant we could go out and get Deron Williams, the supposed apparent heir to the Stockton throne. For a brief period, it looked like our feelings were vindicated - Utah went to the Western Conference Finals in 2007 and looked every bit the potential contender in 2008. Sure, they ran into the Laker buzzsaw, but I remember the feeling of that '08 season and it felt like the Jazz could pretty much beat any team in the league. Maybe we were fooling ourselves, but even that Lakers series in 2008 was fun as ****. I remember it. You all remember it. We lost the first two games, came back to SLC, won the next two and played tough as nails in game five before a furious rally in game six ended our dreams. It was more than just contending - it was being competitive in the playoffs. That two-year stretch between 2007 and 2008 was fairly respectable because the Jazz just didn't win 45 games and bow out in the first round. They went on the road and defeated Houston in the seventh game - an amazing feat for a franchise that had never won a seventh game away from SLC. They went and beat an upstart Golden State Warriors team, who had the most difficult home court in basketball, and did it by winning a huge game four on the road - a place no one thought the Jazz could win. Then they turned around and advanced to the West Finals and gave the Spurs about as good of a series as you could expect out of 4-1 outcome. It was lopsided, but who knows what happens in that series if there isn't substantially bad officiating in game four.

The next year, they go down to Houston and win two road games to open a 2-0 series lead on the Rockets and then win the series 4-2 when a lot in the media had predicted a Rockets win, as they did the year before. I already mentioned the series against the Lakers.

What I know is that those playoff games were amazing because you actually believed in the Jazz. Maybe it was blind faith - but hell, I'll take blind faith over no faith at all. And right now, even tonight, even after a very good win on the road, I don't see anything that indicates to me this team can go out and even contend for a playoff series win - let alone a championship.

That's what it comes down to as a fan. Every struggle is supposed to be leading to something better. When we sucked in 2005 and only won 26 games, and everyone was at each other's balls demanding Sloan resign and the entire franchise blow up, there was at least the hope of a Williams coming in and fixing things - there was the hope that Boozer might be able to make it through an entire season injury free. We put up with it because we felt there was at least something at the end of the tunnel - and it certainly wasn't just darkness. Sure enough, a year later, a rookie Williams leads the Jazz to a .500 record and then a year after that, we're once again an elite team in the west.

But it didn't last. There was only really a two-year window where everything came together to give us fans some hope. In 2009, a year after challenging the Lakers in a tough second-round series, Utah is nearly swept in the first round after backing their way into the playoffs. They see an improvement a year later, actually getting past the first round (a very good series win over Denver), but they're swept by L.A. and then a year later - Sloan is gone, Williams is gone, Boozer is gone at certain points of the season and the Jazz miss the playoffs. Then Ty does a fairly admirable job last season and guides 'em to the 8th seed in an emotional win over Phoenix and we get swept in the first round. No biggie - it was a step in the right direction. We put up with it because it was going to lead us to better results this season.

We all know what's likely to happen, even if Utah makes the playoffs. Unlike in '07 and '08, there is no real hope. The best we can hope for is winning one game, and not get swept. That's the problem. Since the Stockton & Malone days ended, only twice has the Jazz put up a competitive run. Every other year, even in 2010, when we somehow managed to make it to the second round, no one expected anything out of the team - they just kind of went through the playoff motions. That's how I feel right now. We're probably going to the playoffs if we win Tuesday against Oklahoma City - but what does it matter if it results in the same outcome as last year?

There is no question I would take 2007 and 2008, hell, I'd take 2010 right now - but we're stuck with 2013's team - a very average squad that isn't going to get anywhere in the postseason. That's the problem we're facing. Since Stockton and Malone retired, hell, since Stockton and Malone last made the second round (so, 2000), Utah has either missed the playoffs or failed to advance beyond the first round nine times in the last 12 seasons. Is that tolerable? Are you happy that our success post-Stockton & Malone can be whittled down to just two years that are now five years ago?

I'm not. I'm disappointed with the direction this franchise has taken the past five seasons. I don't see how any fan can be happy with what's happened since that 2008 season because it's all been down hill. So, we make the postseason...but what does it matter?
 
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I think the biggest thing to learn and accept here is just being OK isn't good enouph we've done that the last 30 years ... WE NEED A CHAMPIONSHIP ... really anything less is a failure at this point
 
I think the biggest thing to learn and accept here is just being OK isn't good enouph we've done that the last 30 years ... WE NEED A CHAMPIONSHIP ... really anything less is a failure at this point
let me ask you and other guys of the similar conviction... Do you perceive yourself a failure because you did not get into Harvard? Because you do not make more money than any guy that graduated with you from school? In short, do you apply to your life the same standard: first or failure?
 
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