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Stoked said:
There are plenty that do know how to make guns. Also carrying and concealing a firearm is extremely easy. Not all guns are 12 gauge shotguns.
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Just saying that they are not as easy to make. Not as easy to carry and deliver. And not addictive.

The drug black market is, and would be, bigger and more successful than the gun black market simply because it's easier and, due to addiction, in higher demand.

For those reasons I don't think comparing the legality of guns vs drugs is apples to apples
 
fishonjazz said:
Just saying that they are not as easy to make. Not as easy to carry and deliver. And not addictive.

The drug black market is, and would be, bigger and more successful than the gun black market simply because it's easier and, due to addiction, in higher demand.

For those reasons I don't think comparing the legality of guns vs drugs is apples to apples
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I am not trying to compare a black market for guns in size to a black market for drugs. My point is that outlawing it will not stop the demand. Even if the motivation for that demand is different like it would be for drugs and guns.

Also "not as easy" does not mean hard. It is like saying extremely easy as compared to very easy. But yes drugs are easier to make and transport.

As Cy already pointed out there is already a black market for guns and they are legal for most people to obtain. If guns are banned you don't think that demand will increase? I think it will for a number of reasons. Further incentive for criminals to be armed as they know citizens will not be, hidden rebellion by more fanatical gun rights supporters against the gov., straight up human stubbornness...
 
fishonjazz said:
Just saying that they are not as easy to make. Not as easy to carry and deliver. And not addictive.

The drug black market is, and would be, bigger and more successful than the gun black market simply because it's easier and, due to addiction, in higher demand.

For those reasons I don't think comparing the legality of guns vs drugs is apples to apples
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Of course they're not identical, but the core issue is the same. Banning them won't get rid of them. These people will still get guns, and they'll still use them, we just won't have law obeying citizens with them.
 
Stoked said:
I am not trying to compare a black market for guns in size to a black market for drugs. My point is that outlawing it will not stop the demand. Even if the motivation for that demand is different like it would be for drugs and guns.

Also "not as easy" does not mean hard. It is like saying super, extremely, very easy to super, very easy.
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But is hard to distribute guns. I mean with drugs I could literally carry hundreds of packages for customers and it's very affordable for them.
You cant just walk around hundreds of affordable guns for your customers.

They are simply very very different. I think this gun black market after a ban is easy overblown and somewhat of a myth.
 
fishonjazz said:
But is hard to distribute guns. I mean with drugs I could literally carry hundreds of packages for customers and it's very affordable for them.
You cant just walk around hundreds of affordable guns for your customers.

They are simply very very different. I think this gun black market after a ban is easy overblown and somewhat of a myth.
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I don't and thankfully I doubt we will ever find out. I do not think guns are hard to distribute. It is already happening under the table all the time.
 
Howard said:
Perhaps we should work on changing that thinking before we go out and ban something. Otherwise lets go and ban everything that can be harmful towards humans.
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Why can't we do both simultaneously? Ban guns and educate people on why they're ruining the society.

Now I own a lot of guns. I enjoy them, I think they're fun. They definitely have uses. I would be opposed to a ban, but I do think we need to increase education on guns. We have required classes on sex, drugs, alcohol...why don't we do the same with guns? Why is that so unrealistic? We have a large amount of people spewing out rhetoric on a subject they know practically nothing about.
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Would this education start with the principle that guns are a bad thing? For all of us? Because if it doesn't, it's a waste of time. As long as people believe that guns are fun, like you do, these sort of situations will happen. If you're going to talk to kids about this kind of stuff, the way to go would be peace education. Violence IS wrong, even when it's necessary. It's still wrong. Guns are not cool, nor fun, nor is killing people or animals.

I really don't understand how anyone could live in a society where guns and violence are celebrated as cool and manly and then be shocked when someone really takes this to heart.
 
Howard said:
Of course they're not identical, but the core issue is the same. Banning them won't get rid of them. These people will still get guns, and they'll still use them, we just won't have law obeying citizens with them.
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At least there would be less law abiding citizens shooting each other though. It's not like all shootings are done by criminals who purchased guns illegally. In fact I would bet that the majority of people getting shot by guns are from guns purchased legally. Law abiding citizens who got pissed when they were layed off work, wife cheated on them, got cut off in traffic, gun went off accidentally, hunting mishap, mental stability changed, etc etc.
Or someone stole a law abiding citizens gun and used it.

I have a feeling that the number of shootings by people who got their guns on the black market is quite small
 
JimLes said:
Why can't we do both simultaneously? Ban guns and educate people on why they're ruining the society.



Would this education start with the principle that guns are a bad thing? For all of us? Because if it doesn't, it's a waste of time. As long as people believe that guns are fun, like you do, these sort of situations will happen. If you're going to talk to kids about this kind of stuff, the way to go would be peace education. Violence IS wrong, even when it's necessary. It's still wrong. Guns are not cool, nor fun, nor is killing people or animals.

I really don't understand how anyone could live in a society where guns and violence are celebrated as cool and manly and then be shocked when someone really takes this to heart.
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real education doesn't start on the moral dichotomy of good versus bad. That's finger wagging.
 
Oh I'm sure the gun nuts on this website will totally agree with the pro sensible gun regulation crowd on this site.

I mean, if scores of children and their elementary school teachers being slaughtered at Sandy Hook didn't do the trick I'm sure this college being shot all to hell will!

Sigh
 
Stoked said:
I don't and thankfully I doubt we will ever find out. I do not think guns are hard to distribute. It is already happening under the table all the time.
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All the time is a huge over exaggeration.
I have lived a somewhat seedy life and been around allot of criminal activity.
I have yet to ever meet someone selling guns on the black market and I have yet to meet someone who bought a gun on the black market.

I have known a few people (friends allot of the time) who have robbed stores, and shot people. They got their guns from parents or purchased them legally.

Yet I have met literally hundreds of people who have purchased drugs and know many drug dealers. I have done both things myself.

They are so different that there really is no comparison
 
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I know facts mean nothing to the gun nuts, but... Well it's hard to deny these facts.

Why is our rate so much higher than the rest of the industrialized world?

We need more guns? We need to reed the bible? Cuz we are that exceptional???

This ain't rocket science.
 
fishonjazz said:
All the time is a huge over exaggeration.
I have lived a somewhat seedy life and been around allot of criminal activity.
I have yet to ever meet someone selling guns on the black market and I have yet to meet someone who bought a gun on the black market.

I have known a few people (friends allot of the time) who have robbed stores, and shot people. They got their guns from parents or purchased them legally.

Yet I have met literally hundreds of people who have purchased drugs and know many drug dealers. I have done both things myself.

They are so different that there really is no comparison
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I'm enjoying your input in this thread.

I do think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that drug running, gun running, and human trafficking are linked. The big criminal syndicates diversify by trying to get into the mix in all three. The best way to strangle these syndicates would be to legalize drugs and crash their cash flow. Use that as an end-around to exposing the linkages in the firearm trade and bringing it down. Do that at the same time as you make buying a gun, in whatever legal fashion, harder to do (more background checks, taxes, etc.).
 
fishonjazz said:
At least there would be less law abiding citizens shooting each other though. It's not like all shootings are done by criminals who purchased guns illegally. In fact I would bet that the majority of people getting shot by guns are from guns purchased legally. Law abiding citizens who got pissed when they were layed off work, wife cheated on them, got cut off in traffic, gun went off accidentally, hunting mishap, mental stability changed, etc etc.
Or someone stole a law abiding citizens gun and used it.

I have a feeling that the number of shootings by people who got their guns on the black market is quite small
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I suspect that >95% of the guns in this country were originally purchased legally.
 
Scat said:
Apparently The Revolution was a mistake as it is the event that secured American's freedom to bear arms. Those silly founding fathers.
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I'm glad they helped the average Joe pay taxes to some other white dudes. England too far!
 
gandalfe said:
I suspect that >95% of the guns in this country were originally purchased legally.
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Ya I bet the number is extremely high.
 
NAOS said:
I'm enjoying your input in this thread.

I do think there's a lot of evidence to suggest that drug running, gun running, and human trafficking are linked. The big criminal syndicates diversify by trying to get into the mix in all three. The best way to strangle these syndicates would be to legalize drugs and crash their cash flow. Use that as an end-around to exposing the linkages in the firearm trade and bringing it down. Do that at the same time as you make buying a gun, in whatever legal fashion, harder to do (more background checks, taxes, etc.).
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I do think that would decrease the total flow and by result some of the guns coming up. Doing a better job at border security would also help strangle that flow even further.

But I am not sure how many drugs I am comfortable legalizing. Not sure where I stand on that tbh.
 
Question for those supporting a gun ban.

There are by estimation over 300 millions guns in America. Let us say a gun ban is put into place and citizens are required to turn in their weapons. Let us say that many people do and let's say that 75% of weapons are confiscated and destroyed. That still leaves 75 million guns in the US. How to we get those guns? What is the plan to confiscate and destroy them?
 
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