What does LeBron need to do to surpass Jordan?

[fishonjazz]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html
Big Z was a beast long before LBJ arrived.

Never averaged a double double or ten rebounds a game and never over 20 pts per game.

My definition of beast and your differ greatly

 

[BTP]

Never averaged a double double or ten rebounds a game and never over 20 pts per game.

My definition of beast and your differ greatly

My definition of beast is within his advanced stats.
.184 WS/48 in his best individual season with a 21.9 PER. Took care of the ball, career 12.8% TO ratio.Slightly below avg defensive rebounder, above average offensive rebounder. Good defensive rating and acceptable ofensive efficiency. Did a lot of damage from the free throw line.
Simply a good basketball player, nothing flashy, yet efficient.

 

[fishonjazz]

My definition of beast is within his advanced stats.
.184 WS/48 in his best individual season with a 21.9 PER. Took care of the ball, career 12.8% TO ratio.Slightly below avg defensive rebounder, above average offensive rebounder. Good defensive rating and acceptable ofensive efficiency. Did a lot of damage from the free throw line.
Simply a good basketball player, nothing flashy, yet efficient.

I originally called him mediocre.... you call him simply a good basketball player. We are not that far apart on him

My original point was that lebrons Cleveland teams were pretty bad with no LeBron. I think you could agree with that.

And also that people who say LeBron is playing on an allstar team, meanwhile Jordan had a bunch of scrubs around him is not true since Jordan had pippen, rodman, grant, kerr, kukoc, and phil Jackson coaching.

 

[spycam1]

I originally called him mediocre.... you call him simply a good basketball player. We are not that far apart on him

My original point was that lebrons Cleveland teams were pretty bad with no LeBron. I think you could agree with that.

And also that people who say LeBron is playing on an allstar team, meanwhile Jordan had a bunch of scrubs around him is not true since Jordan had pippen, rodman, grant, kerr, kukoc, and phil Jackson coaching.

A primed Wade vs primed Pippen would be an interesting debate, but Wade is definitely not in his prime anymore. Overall, I definitely think Jordan had more help than LeBron, even in Miami.

Not saying this defines who is better, just giving my two cents on the matter since it was brought up.

 

[Fabtrey]

Never averaged a double double or ten rebounds a game and never over 20 pts per game.

My definition of beast and your differ greatly

look at his per 36. he was a borderline 20/10 guy. he was no beast, but he was still top 5 center at that time. he consistently hit those 10-15fter jumpers and his post game was good enough. he was slow, and not much of a defender, but his size itself was a huge plus. he altered alot of shots.

very underrated player.

 

[fishonjazz]

look at his per 36. he was a borderline 20/10 guy. he was no beast, but he was still top 5 center at that time. he consistently hit those 10-15fter jumpers and his post game was good enough. he was slow, and not much of a defender, but his size itself was a huge plus. he altered alot of shots.

very underrated player.

Fair enough

 

[Fabtrey]

Jordan is better because

better at going left
better at mid range game (this is the biggest difference)
better at finishing around the rim
better at going to the hoop
better at creating his own O
better at FTs
better at being clutch
better at 1 on 1 D
better at team D
much faster first step
wider range of moves
stronger mentally
better leader
played in a tougher era
played in much more physical era



bron is said to be a better passer, but i would say it's pretty close. jordan's passing is way underrated. when he was asked to play like bron in 89, dude avg 32.5/8/8 shooting 54%. Jordan can easily play that role if he also has wade and bron.

i can give 3pt shooting edge to bron, but jordan never really relied on 3pt shooting, and he made many clutch 3pt shots.


only real advantage bron has is his physical advantage. but jordan was ridiculously strong for his size and his insane hand size and 8 10 standing reach made him the perfect shooting guard. so in way jordan was also a freak too.

scale is not right, but just look at how jordan's oven mitt wraps around the ball. not only he had the body control, but he also had that crazy hand control.

 

[8]

I agree with basically all of those except 1 on 1 d. When Lebron wants to, he will shut anyone 1-3 and almost all 4's down. He just is relied upon for offense and staying out of foul trouble so much that he doesn't need to do this. Plus, he was Wade kinda like Jordan had Pippen. Biggest difference in the two in which I agree with Fabtrey is MJ's ability to create his own offense, and especially that midrange game. Probably the best midrange game ever. I think MJ's passing was very underrated like he said simply because MJ is better at scoring himself than LBJ, so he doesn't create for others and pass as often. That doesn't make him a worse or more selfish player. Just means that the best play for the team is often him shooting.
However, if Lebron ever gets his shooting up to Jordan's level, he'd be way better. And the left hand thing tbh

 

[8]

Team D I'd also disagree, that's pretty hard to quantify tho tbh

And probably the tougher era thing. Who the hell knows. I think NBA today is tougher imho, at least the playoffs are

 

[Fabtrey]

I agree with basically all of those except 1 on 1 d. When Lebron wants to, he will shut anyone 1-3 and almost all 4's down. He just is relied upon for offense and staying out of foul trouble so much that he doesn't need to do this. Plus, he was Wade kinda like Jordan had Pippen. Biggest difference in the two in which I agree with Fabtrey is MJ's ability to create his own offense, and especially that midrange game. Probably the best midrange game ever. I think MJ's passing was very underrated like he said simply because MJ is better at scoring himself than LBJ, so he doesn't create for others and pass as often. That doesn't make him a worse or more selfish player. Just means that the best play for the team is often him shooting.
However, if Lebron ever gets his shooting up to Jordan's level, he'd be way better. And the left hand thing tbh

lebron couldn't shut down boris diaw. bron's D is getting seriously overrated. bron is a great defender, but jordan was top 4 greatest defender of all time.

 

[8]

lebron couldn't shut down boris diaw. bron's D is getting seriously overrated. bron is a great defender, but jordan was top 4 greatest defender of all time.

I don't remember Boris Diaw tearing up Lebron. But Diaw is a true 4 and very big, Jordan would be worse defending him down low than Lebron is

 

[Fabtrey]

Team D I'd also disagree, that's pretty hard to quantify tho tbh

And probably the tougher era thing. Who the hell knows. I think NBA today is tougher imho, at least the playoffs are

in this same 'tough era', 40 year old MJ with 1 good knee dropped 40+pts on our own richard jefferson who was a great athlete 10 years ago.
MJ.

that era(10 years ago) actually had a tough overall defense, and had plenty of younguns - tmac, kobe, vinsanity, etc, etc.


MJ in this era would avg 40pts. go watch james harden. just few days ago, he shot 25FTs. lol Imagine the superstar calls MJ would get. bron is naturally set up first guy, so he doesn't shoot many FTs. sometimes he is just too passive and let the game come to him. MJ would attack the rim at will in this no hand check era. MJ was the ultimate attacker. dude was a machine.

 

[Fabtrey]

I don't remember Boris Diaw tearing up Lebron. But Diaw is a true 4 and very big, Jordan would be worse defending him down low than Lebron is

my bad, it was other way around. diaw neutralized bron.

jason kidd also played great d on bron.

durant didn't have any problem playing against bron. Scottie would've shut down KD.

 

[Fabtrey]

lebron is a great defender because of his versatility, and his strength to d up against tweener 4s. but MJ was the ultimate shut down corner. he was Deion sanders. and MJ can only guard 1-3. but if bron was asked to guard 4 in 80's and 90's, he would get owned badly.

and pippen became that shut down corner as well, so MJ in later years became a great help defender after he lost that quickness.

and pippen destroys bron at every facet of perimeter defense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9vFHYVXtRk

wanna know why? because pippen had to guard MJ every damn practice. this is not a joke.

 

[spycam1]

For ****s and giggles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueNfQ2puaw8

 

[HeavenHarris]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQnu83R5CuM

 

[Hotdog]

Jordans record without Scottie Pippen 182-228. That includes his Washington Wizard days.

During his tenure with the Bulls, his record was 108-138.

In 1987, 37/5.2/4.6 with 2.9 steals per game and 1.5 blocks on 56% TS. Incredible, right? Yeah, the team finished under .500, including getting swept by the Celtics. That was Jordan at 23, along with his 3rd consecutive playoff trip.

At 23, LeBron averaged 30/7.9/7.2 with 1.8 steals per game and 1.1 blocks on 56% TS. The difference? The team finished 45-37, and went to Game 7 with the Celtics. The previous year, LeBron dragged a disgusting Cavalier team to a 50-32 record and to the Finals. Jordan at 22? Swept once again.

Jordan's playoff record without Pippen? 2-9. (One in his rookie year, and one against Philly in 1990.

 

[Stifle Tower]

that's retarded championship is a team accomplishment. and who gives a crap about career stats? so is kobe better than jordan because of career stats? lol

put jordan in 60's - i can't imagine how badly he would own the league. and how many teams were there in 60's?

Jordan was simply the greatest because he is the greatest player. just watch the tape and he is just clearly better than everybody else. dude was unreal.

Agree. By that logic, Rodman > Malone and Danny Ainge > Stockton.

 

[fishonjazz]

Agree. By that logic, Rodman > Malone and Danny Ainge > Stockton.

Core4 sighting

 

[addictionary]

and you are discrediting big Z. he was actually decent - top 5 center for at least 4 years.

anyway we all know jordan pretty much made pippen. pippen's D became better every year because he was guarding MJ in practice. pippen admitted that many times. when your leader slaps your face(kerr), threaten to kill you(grant) on a daily basis, you get better both mentally & physically. MJ got into your head. MJ controlled your life. pippen right now is taking a jab at MJ here and there - is still MJ's little puppet. MJ didn't have any friends. MJ was the dictator. that quality of him was sickening, but it was needed to make the team greater. you can really say MJ made others better by just being MJ - an obsessed competitor who put fear into teammates. horace grant really was afraid of MJ. bill wennington too. wennington admitted that as well. do you guys think phil jackson was a coach? lol. nobody feared the zen master. zen master was the soothing presence. MJ was what everyone feared and listened to. zen master was yang to MJ's yin just to keep the balance. he was more of a ref in most of those championship years. all he did was make MJ to share the ball and made him understand that without team ball he won't win a damn thing. MJ listened. that's all. i'm not discrediting Phil, but that's how it was. he managed MJ's gigantic ego. that alone is a greatest thing a coach ever did in this league.

bron is more like Magic. he is a people pleaser. but he still gets way too much credit lately. bosh is 24/10 guy as a lead dog. wade won it all by himself, and still has plenty left in him. without bron, wade is still a 25pt guy. if that's not an all star team, i don't know what is.

He didn't slap Kerr if I recall correctly, he punched him.