Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[InGameStrategy]

Kanter has never played in the NBA, yet you speak of him like he is the next comming of Karl Malone. Al played very well down the stretch and while they did not win many games, it's foolish to believe that was is fault. Al needs another year in the system without dwill ripping out his confidence. If he can't pull it together then we can speak aboit moving him.

While kudos are in order for AJ (perhaps with the help of the coaches) improving offensively and possibly in man-on defense, his help defense still leaves much to be desired.

Also, Big Al is arguably a "cornerstone" player, and I don't see leadership out of him that might have been observed in--say--Karl Malone (to throw in a high standard from yesteryear), especially on defense.

BTW, was there evidence that DWill was "ripping out his confidence", and did his confidence magically improve after DW left? ? IMHO, Al got more opportunities (especially minutes) than he deserved.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I assure you, it was a coincidence. I haven't looked at the data again, and no one has presented any, so I don't even know if what you're saying about Al's performance against the top Eastern Conference teams is true. If someone is going to make a claim, they should back it up. I did some leg work. I never claimed it was perfect, but I certainly never claimed it was anything more than what it is. I didn't skew any data. All the data I posted is accurate. If you have a problem with the data, post better data (as I did in your thread). What should I be apologizing for?

Coincidence? Alright I guess I can believe you, though it is extremely convenient. Examples? Alright: from February 28th to the end of March, Al Jefferson played Eastern Conference teams 6 times. In these 6 games he scored: 28 points against the Boston Celtics on February 28th (undoubtedly elite); 36 against the Knicks (not an elite "team", though they certainly have elite talent and they were a playoff team; 34 against the Raports, who are certainly not elite;33 on Chicago, aka the best regular season team of the NBA last season; 30 against the 76ers, who similarily to the Knicks are a talented playoff team, though they wouldnt be classified as elite; and at the very end of the month (march 28th), when Utah was virtually out of the playoff picture after suffering a 5 game losing streak (later to become 8th, as we know) Al Jefferson only scored 15 against the Washington Wizards, who are certainly the opposite of elite at that point in time.

Due to the small amount of games played against the Eastern Conference during March, it is difficult to really support opinions with facts obtained from this small of a sample size. What is quite significant, is the fact that he played 2 elite ECF teams (both top 4) and averaged 30.5 against them (if my mental math is correct). Against 1st/2nd round exits, Al averaged 33 ppg. Notice how the omission game log info from your initial definition of elite really supported your point, but if you included the other half of the equation it would have done the exact opposite? This is why I claimed that your chosen factual evidence was quite dishonest, or just simply not well chosen at all. I hope you can understand where Im coming from here, im trying to be as clear as possible. His pctg against the 4 playoff teams was .530. Throw in Toronto and Washington, and then you have .549. PS, what were the percentages you got for your comparison, and which games did you choose? After looking at the Game log, only elite teams Al played in March are the Mavs and OKC, who he cuumalitvely averaged .604 against. I think thats above league average, AND above his allstar game pctgs. If you throw in February into the mix, he played dallas and okc again, and he averaged a FG of .685 between those two games (he scored 21 and 30 points in these two games, so its not like he was 2/3 or something). Curious to hear which data you used.

Even if there were something to retract or apologize for (there isn't), I certainly wouldn't be apologizing to you. Since entering this thread, you've called me foolish, childish, dishonest and brain-dead. Further, like billy, you've consistently misrepresented what I've posted in this thread. You've acted like a little bitch. I await your apology.

a) I initially said your POST was a foolish thing to say. Then you responded by saying that maybe I am the one who is foolish. I simply critized your point. You criticized me as a person before I ever insulted you. Nice try though, I applaud you for the effort
b) Misrepresented what youve posted? I could easily say the same about you. PS: usually changing your arguments and then claiming that you "overstated" them is very bitch-rememiscient. Take a look in the mirror.
c) So you wont apologize for something just because I rebuttled your personal attack on me? Cool. For the record, if you prove to me that there is something that I should be apologizing for, then I will. I did apologize earlier for misinterpreting the quote, and other than that I cannot think of anything else. Im not gonna hold some childish-grudge and not admit I'm wrong just for the sake to win an argument.
d) You say that I dont deserve an apology because I have thrown insults your way, and then you refer to me as a much MORE derogatory term and then tell me youre awaiting an apology? Oh the irony

 

[GVC]

Due to the small amount of games played against the Eastern Conference during March, it is difficult to really support opinions with facts obtained from this small of a sample size. What is quite significant, is the fact that he played 2 elite ECF teams (both top 4) and averaged 30.5 against them (if my mental math is correct)

I hope you realize that in the 4 games Al played against the Bulls and Celtics during last season (the two teams you selected), he shot under 50% combined, with a TS% of .524, which is well below the league average. This doesn't help those arguing that Al was efficient scoring the ball against elite teams.

Oh the irony

I'm shocked you were able to pick up on that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Idk what thread is more pointless, this one or the Marijuana thread in GD.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Idk what thread is more pointless, this one or the Marijuana thread in GD.

What? They are both truly riveting.

 

[Deleted member 848]

PS I calculated the FG% of all of Als games against the most elite of teams he played against in the months of February and March from both conferences (these were the Bulls, OKC, the Mavs, and the Celtics)

I got 60.7%. Notice how this detriments your point completely.

 

[GVC]

It's bad enough that people want to focus on a 28 game stretch. Looking at only 7 games (all losses) is completely ridiculous. But ya, Al put up some good numbers against good teams in February and March.

 

[Deleted member 848]

It's bad enough that people want to focus on a 28 game stretch. Looking at only 7 games (all losses) is completely ridiculous. But ya, Al put up some good numbers against good teams in February and March.

Seeing as you basically said the polar opposite of this a few pages ago, its nice to see that you've finally come around to the other side.

 

[sepanol]

Kanter has never played in the NBA, yet you speak of him like he is the next comming of Karl Malone. Al played very well down the stretch and while they did not win many games, it's foolish to believe that was is fault. Al needs another year in the system without dwill ripping out his confidence. If he can't pull it together then we can speak aboit moving him.

Ripping out his confidence? if there is someone whose confidence is ripped, its hayward , certainly not Big Al. If you read my previous threads i already emphasized i dont say he is the next Karl Malone, it is foolish to make such comments without reading the other posts.

I am telling my opinion after seeing this guy whole year of playing, he is not one of the top 20 big men in the league. So that's pretty enough reasoning that he can't be our franchise guy at all. Will Kanter be? We will see, hard to say without seeing him play in nba at all, but we have seen Big Al enough to make judgments about. And i don't think we can achieve big success with him as the first option.

 

[GVC]

Seeing as you basically said the polar opposite of this a few pages ago

Well, that's a lie. I'm curious where I said that. Go ahead and quote the relevant post(s).

 

[sepanol]

My overstatement, which I admitted to, was that the games in March were meaningless because, with the passage of time, I had forgotten, at least in part, how late the Jazz were still in the race for a playoff spot (especially since, given the tail spin, most people were of the opinion, myself included, that the Jazz weren't going to make the playoffs). Had I remembered correctly, I wouldn't have made that statement, which is why I retracted it. I don't know why I should have to defend something I already admitted was an overstatement.

When you entered the thread, as I've already quoted, you were laughing about how it would be idiotic for anyone to claim that a win in November is worth the same as a win in March. That is what you quoted from me, and I assumed that's what you were addressing (you know, since that's what you quoted). You were never addressing a point I made about the relative importance of games because since admitting my mistake, I never made any claims about that. It's all right here in this thread, and you should be able to go back and read it. You'll see I've been consistent since admitting my overstatement.

As for skewed statistics, what exactly is the problem? Zerol and billy made completely unsubstantiated claims about Al's performance against a vague set of "elite" teams. I, being completely honest about my methodology, presented his stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams. I even stated that I'd have to know what they meant by "elite" to be able to check these claims, but they didn't come forward with definitions or data. The data I presented was accurate.

The issue I had with your data is that you chose to round your numbers in such a way (contrary to standard practice) to make your argument more credible. You did so without stating that that's what you were doing.

What I did was honest and accurate. If someone didn't like how I defined "elite" teams OR how much time I was willing to put into gathering data, they could re-define the term less ambiguously and collect the data themselves. What you did was dishonest and inaccurate. Period.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GVC again.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Well, that's a lie. I'm curious where I said that. Go ahead and quote the relevant post(s).

I believe that is what was inferred when you said that Al Jefferson showed no statistical advantage over the rest of the league when he played "elite" teams on February and March. I am now saying that there is a statisical advantage, and now you have agreed upon it. To me, those two points are opposites. Not gonna go back and quote just because you told me to do so. Dont be scared, embrace the knowledge Jefferdad played well against the elite teams in comparison to other centers, you should be stoked.