Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[Deleted member 848]

I said I wouldn't apologize to you, but I didn't say I wouldn't admit being wrong (if I were wrong).

In Billy's post a few pages back when he stated that Al was best against elite teams, I took it as meaning he was best against those teams over the whole season. That's why I stated that his splits didn't seem any better against Western Conference playoff teams for the year, and why I crunched the numbers against the top 4. I concluded that his TS% against those 4 teams was roughly in line with the league average, and also roughly in line with his post-All-Star TS% (and better than his TS% for the season).

My posts are very clear. Read them and try to not let your emotions get in the way of what's actually there in front of you.

This was definitely not clear to me. Heres why:

And you're not being honest about his performance against playoff teams (even "Western" teams which is a dodge). He killed in that stretch against the league elite.

This was the post immediately preceding your compilation of data. Why you would use season averages in your argument, as opposed to addressing his point of killing elite teams in those two months seems very unusual to me. This makes your data compilation even more laughable, quite frankly.

 

[Deleted member 848]

That's the most logical post i read of you and i agree. I don't know why it seemed like I was too against Big Al and you were completely with him then.

Haha, our 2 month arguement can finally come to a close then. Kanter honestly has great potential, and I am hopeful for him, I just think that hes gonna start getting much better once we go through our experiment with Big Al, and I sincerely doubt we wont give him sufficient playing time to help develop him until then. He is a third overall pick, after all. There'll be enough minutes for our frontcourt.

 

[GVC]

This was the post immediately preceding your compilation of data. Why you would use season averages in your argument, as opposed to addressing his point of killing elite teams in those two months seems very unusual to me. This makes your data compilation even more laughable, quite frankly.

It was a mistake on my part then. The earlier post he made was a little more ambiguous, and I had probably already started looking at the stats before he made the post you just quoted. It doesn't make the data bad, as I stated that those were his stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams for the season. My selection of data is not nearly as laughable as the inference you made counter to what I actually stated.

Looking at 7 games, while ignoring the other 75, and trying to draw conclusions is still ridiculous, either way. Take a look at Millsap's first 7 (consecutive) games last season.

 

[Deleted member 848]

It was a mistake on my part then. The earlier post he made was a little more ambiguous, and I had probably already started looking at the stats before he made the post you just quoted. It doesn't make the data bad, as I stated that those were his stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams for the season. My selection of data is not nearly as laughable as the inference you made counter to what I actually stated.

Looking at 7 games, while ignoring the other 75, and trying to draw conclusions is still ridiculous, either way. Take a look at Millsap's first 7 (consecutive) games last season.

Glad you're owning up to it. It doesnt make your data completely false, I was just expecting much more precise data, especially since the argument was revolving around his explosion in Febreuary and March. Thats why I said it was laughable. Never would I ever say Al consistenly played well against elite teams over the course of the entire season. And if you read my post when I posted the stats for the games, I said that the sample size was very small and you couldnt make a great argument with it, however it DOES support the fact that he played well against elite teams during February and March contrary to what your data made it seem like. PS if were looking at games against top 4 elite teams, it would be 7 out of 24 games, not 75. And unfortunately, I cannot think of a better way to show how well played against elite teams during February and March, and I dont think you can either.

 

[GVC]

Glad you're owning up to it.

Why wouldn't I? I don't win anything for tricking people. I'm all for honest discussion.

I understand I can be overly aggressive at times, and realize that that sort of behavior isn't conducive to a good discussion. I try to be honest, and apologize when I've gone too far with my attacks (although this doesn't hold when the attacks are in response to unprovoked, inappropriate attacks or, occasionally, when I'm arguing with someone I feel is generally dishonest and unfair). I try to stay flexible, and change my mind when presented with a compelling argument.

I'd love to see Big Al come back in shape and ready to kick *** whenever basketball resumes. Truly. It's much easier to fix a log jam of productive players than unproductive players (in terms of what can be had on the trade market).

With all that said, I think Paul Millsap has proven that he is one of the best role players in the NBA. Is he, or will he ever be, a superstar? Probably not, but you can expect efficiency, hard work, toughness and very smart team play from him consistently. He's worth (relatively speaking) every dollar he makes.

I'm not sold on Big Al being the star he's paid to be. If he were able to fit in as a very good role player, that wouldn't be such a problem, but he hasn't shown nearly the same ability as Millsap to fit a winning role on a winning team for a whole season. If he either gets a lot more efficient offensively or becomes a better team basketball player, he could be a keeper for sure, as he certainly can do some things that good basketball teams need (and that Paul Millsap isn't best at).

 

[sepanol]

With all that said, I think Paul Millsap has proven that he is one of the best role players in the NBA. Is he, or will he ever be, a superstar? Probably not, but you can expect efficiency, hard work, toughness and very smart team play from him consistently. He's worth (relatively speaking) every dollar he makes.

I'm not sold on Big Al being the star he's paid to be. If he were able to fit in as a very good role player, that wouldn't be such a problem, but he hasn't shown nearly the same ability as Millsap to fit a winning role on a winning team for a whole season. If he either gets a lot more efficient offensively or becomes a better team basketball player, he could be a keeper for sure, as he certainly can do some things that good basketball teams need (and that Paul Millsap isn't best at).

I totally agree

 

[NotDeadYet]

I think Jefferson has the mindset and the ability to do whatever his coach wants on the court. However...
In looking into the crystal ball, I'd think the best possible future for us with current roster is Kanter and Favors starting. Both Millsap at PF and Jefferson at C are undersized and ultimately would be better off the bench. Now how long it takes for them to develop, who knows, but I'm sure the Jazz brass are painfully aware of us being undersized down in the paint. We are just being manhandled by most of these young much bigger and agile guys coming into the NBA the last few years.

 

[Lakers_Slapper]

I would not only like to wish everybody a happy halloween, but also give my best wishes to Mrs. GVC. and Mrs. Billyshelby! This post has brought love to this website, and apparently will never die as long as these two individuals continue arguing like they are a 156 year old couple that have been married for 127 years. I wish them my love, and hopefully will work their differences out within the next 124 pages. Hopefully their noth planning the names of thier children together. If they mix thiem together, MRS GVSHELBY-BILLY-C. Does not have the best ring to it. I hope I am invited to their marriage, and hopefully they are divorced soon after so that we may never witness this type of love-hate relationship ever again. - Amen

 

[jope]

I think Jefferson has the mindset and the ability to do whatever his coach wants on the court. However...
In looking into the crystal ball, I'd think the best possible future for us with current roster is Kanter and Favors starting. Both Millsap at PF and Jefferson at C are undersized and ultimately would be better off the bench. Now how long it takes for them to develop, who knows, but I'm sure the Jazz brass are painfully aware of us being undersized down in the paint. We are just being manhandled by most of these young much bigger and agile guys coming into the NBA the last few years.

I still see kanter as a PF skill set, even though he's an inch taller than jefferson.

I sometimes worry we will be having 4 PF's manning the front court

 

[Brown Notes]

I think Jefferson has the mindset and the ability to do whatever his coach wants on the court. However...
In looking into the crystal ball, I'd think the best possible future for us with current roster is Kanter and Favors starting. Both Millsap at PF and Jefferson at C are undersized and ultimately would be better off the bench. Now how long it takes for them to develop, who knows, but I'm sure the Jazz brass are painfully aware of us being undersized down in the paint. We are just being manhandled by most of these young much bigger and agile guys coming into the NBA the last few years.

Jefferson has better reach, standing vert and consequently about 3" no step vert reach on Kanter, at least coming out he did.

https://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&source=All&sort=11

Maybe after that knee injury it's closer but I doubt it. Jefferson has a very good ability to quickly get a hand pretty high up. Not to mention before multiple hijacks the OP was about AJ's supposed improved basketball body.

Kanter's measurables are not his strongest suit. If he ends up a better defender than Al it won't be because of what he was born with.

Derrick Favors of course is in orbit above both of these guys and on the moon compared to Sap, comparable to Howard, McGee and Okafor.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Jefferson has better reach, standing vert and consequently about 3" no step vert reach on Kanter, at least coming out he did.

https://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=All&sort2=DESC&draft=0&pos=5&source=All&sort=11

Maybe after that knee injury it's closer but I doubt it. Jefferson has a very good ability to quickly get a hand pretty high up. Not to mention before multiple hijacks the OP was about AJ's supposed improved basketball body.

Kanter's measurables are not his strongest suit. If he ends up a better defender than Al it won't be because of what he was born with.

Derrick Favors of course is in orbit above both of these guys and on the moon compared to Sap, comparable to Howard, McGee and Okafor.

I'm not a participant in the Jefferson vs. Kanter debate. Mostly because I believe Kanter needs time to develop, but also because I'm patient enough to wait and see.
Having said that, the 'rest' of the story is Kanter benched 14 to Al's 3. Kanter max vert is 2.5" greater. Kanter measured a full inch and a half taller. Kanter had lane agility of 11.3 to 13.08 for Al. What does all that mean? Squat. Let's throw it up and see how it goes.

 

[sepanol]

I would not only like to wish everybody a happy halloween, but also give my best wishes to Mrs. GVC. and Mrs. Billyshelby! This post has brought love to this website, and apparently will never die as long as these two individuals continue arguing like they are a 156 year old couple that have been married for 127 years. I wish them my love, and hopefully will work their differences out within the next 124 pages. Hopefully their noth planning the names of thier children together. If they mix thiem together, MRS GVSHELBY-BILLY-C. Does not have the best ring to it. I hope I am invited to their marriage, and hopefully they are divorced soon after so that we may never witness this type of love-hate relationship ever again. - Amen

You should wish me happy birthday man, it is on halloween or it was already )