George W
Well-Known Member
If we trade for Siakam, should we send Clarkson as well for additional cap room?
Personally I’d prefer trading don for Lillard
- George
The Offseason Cha-cha-changes Thread
- Thread starter Ineptimusprime
- Start date
Personally I’d prefer trading don for Lillard
- George
David Stern
Well-Known Member
Collins is probably an All-Star with Quin, that is the scenario I’d be most excited for. If you could somehow add in (our) Bogey and Huerter to this trade, I think we’re better. Collins as the center in a five out lineup immediately helps us in the postseason as well
The Thunder didn’t get any immediate high draft picks though. They’ve been tanking for one ever since without success.
The Jazz could potentially get a top-tier pick for Mitchell and tank more successfully precisely because they could bottom out harder.
This rebuild could take as few as two or three years or could be dragged out and take more than a decade. But in any case, no Jazz team will have the talent it just had without a full commitment to a rebuild. We just have no path to meaningfully improve without mortgaging the paltry draft assets remaining. And if they do that it might further cripple a future rebuild.
Yeah, Hollinger is obviously an analytics guy so he is going to rate Gobert higher than a lot of other people.
I know others get excited about draft picks, but the Siakam deal is actually my favorite. Other moves would have to happen as well, but a Mitchell and Siakam pairing would be a good start.
I would also be open to a Mitchell for Siakam trade. I think Conley, Siakam, and Gobert would work a lot better than Conley, Mitchell, and Gobert.
Needless to say, I’m high on Siakam.
Helps us how? From what I understand Collins is as bad of a defensive liability as Mitchell. Huerter isn’t helping the defense either.
Any conversation about the defense going forward starts and ends with Quin Snyder instilling the worst habits and system of anything but the absolute worst teams in the league.
Nothing will improve with him here. Any defensive upgrade on the roster will be swallowed by the scheme that preaches laziness as it’s chief tenet. The Euro foul being emblematic of the whole thing. He throttles any notion of playing defense for pride in ones self or for each other in the ****ing crib.
Dude has to go.
Nothing will improve with him here. Any defensive upgrade on the roster will be swallowed by the scheme that preaches laziness as it’s chief tenet. The Euro foul being emblematic of the whole thing. He throttles any notion of playing defense for pride in ones self or for each other in the ****ing crib.
Dude has to go.
George W
Well-Known Member
A major drop-off in three point threat-- but otherwise, not bad.
Conley/NAW
O'Neale/House/Clarkson
Bogey
Siakam
Gobert
We would be in dire need of 3-point shooting; and we would need to pray that NAW pans out.
-
Toronto annoyingly traded away their first rounder this year for Thad Young (a horrible trade, lol). But their roster would be
FVV
Mitchell/GTJ
Barnes
Achiuwa
Birch/Boucher
Much more creation capabilities
- George
And this falls back to what I’ve said about Quin and stats vs. psychology (a false dichotomy): the euro-foul is one example of Quin seeing this purely statistically, as if it were in a vacuum. He neglects the psychological effect this has on the team as a long-term strategy and how it affects multiple other variables, most notably defensive effort (which isn’t a stat) but would correlate with poor defensive numbers. But since a computer can’t draw a straight line between euro-fouls and poor defensive outcome outside of isolating the euro-foul by itself, it requires human observation to make that connection, which completely escapes Quin. And for a statistical guy, he seems to only approach this as a first-order problem, and can’t even seem to incorporate some basic second-order impacts like euro-fouling in the bonus or risk of clear-path fouls. Superficially, all these ideas look great and wise, which I think is where Quin derives his reputation, and even in many low-pressure situations may bear some fruit. But go any deeper than this superficial level and start putting this into context and it all falls apart.
But I have no idea what the FO is thinking. What’s obvious and logical doesn’t always translate into the actions they try to take (see perimeter defense problem since the Denver series). But this is a new FO and I still won’t make any assumptions. Common sense says Quin is gone. Hired by another ownership group and a different GM. The only FO carryover in significant position is JZ, who’s been in and out of the FO over DL years and has been willing to subtly throw DL under the bus on a few issues. Ainge has to see this ********. I can’t imagine he comes from the outside and watches this nonsense and thinks Quin is on the right path. Wade, too, with subtle comments he made on NT about our strategies. There’s no way he can look at this and think running with Quin again is productive. So where would the “we gotta keep Quin” come from in the FO? Would it be them catering to DM (this is a huge stain on the FO to pursue such a short-sighted strategy, on this issue or others). Is it not feeling like they have an adequate replacement? Or, like perimeter defense the past two off seasons, is it one of those things they’re just crossing their fingers on, hoping for better luck?
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LoPo
Well-Known Member
The system built around Rudy is broken. Teams have figured it out. Not even elite teams either.
Trade Rudy. And if Don wants gone, trade him too.
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Trade Rudy. And if Don wants gone, trade him too.
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LogGrad98
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The problem is Quin will stifle any defensive bent these guys have. It's very clear Quin doesn't care about defense so anyone we bring in better have a strong defensive identity of their own because the focus will be on shooting and the hypercomplex PhD-in-chaos-theory level offense they will need to learn and hitting the open 3.
Well....the Mitchell/Gobert combo could work if the Jazz had Cade Cunningham playing next to them.
Reminder that when the Jazz traded Deron Williams, they got back what was considered to be a really great package: Derrick Favors, Devin Harris, a future pick that turned into Enes Freedom and possibly another pick.
The Jazz bottomed out and put together a young Core 4 of Gordon Hayward, Alec Burks, Favors and Freedom. Then they added Trey Burke. Then Dante Exum. The Jazz were on their way with their new young core and savvy vets like Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson and Marvin Williams.
If the Jazz move Gobert or Mitchell, they'd damn sure better be getting back an All Star in return.
The Jazz bottomed out and put together a young Core 4 of Gordon Hayward, Alec Burks, Favors and Freedom. Then they added Trey Burke. Then Dante Exum. The Jazz were on their way with their new young core and savvy vets like Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson and Marvin Williams.
If the Jazz move Gobert or Mitchell, they'd damn sure better be getting back an All Star in return.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
I don't think so. The more I watched this series, the more it became obvious that our defensive system, that we take so much pride in, is completely flawed.
Opponents put us into a blender of sorts that always ends up with an open 3 point shooter. I used to think it was our poor perimeter defending, but it's our system. It's what we try to run.
Trading Don to build around Rudy will result in the same misery.
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With Quin, yes. If you’re eager to see how a Quin/Donovan team would plays without Rudy as a crutch, I’d be interested in your explanation when it assuredly comes crumbling down.
Good insight on the Hayward situation. A trio of Hayward-Gobert-Mitchell with a younger Ingles as a complement would have been really solid.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
You're right. Maybe we dump Quin and build a system that works better.
I think regardless, we lack the players to get over the top even if we do change the system.
So by the time the system looks like it could work, our age and Rudy's age leads to a decline.
With what we have built, I just don't see any reason to keep Rudy. Why?
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mongoose01
Well-Known Member
We lack the players with DM too.. DM gets smoked by every guard line in the NBA. Literally everyone has career nights against him. He needed to learn to play the point and apparently refuses to do so.
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LoPo
Well-Known Member
I wasn't talking about Don. That's another issue altogether. We tackle that depending on what we get for Rudy and other assets.
First and foremost, we trade Rudy. Then from there, we decide what we do depending on what we get back.
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LoPo
Well-Known Member
I love Collins. He can do a bit of everything on offense and he's a good rebounder. He needs to improve his defending, but it's not as bad as some around here want you to think.
Atlanta has a bunch of assets: Collins, Huerter, Capella, Hunter, Boban Bogdanovic, Okongwu, draft picks.
Rudy to Atlanta makes a ton of sense for them and it could for us too.
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Atlanta is committed to Trae Young, who is arguably the worst guard defender in the league. I could see them reach for Gobert as an over-correction. I'm intrigued by Jalen Johnson too.