Roe v. Wade is going down

[One Brow]

What would be wrong with expanding the court to 15 or 21 justices, creating term limits (maybe 10 years? or 15? I'm not set on any particular number), and drawing names out of a hat (or doing some random 9 or 11 selection from the pool of justices)? What would be wrong with this? I think it solves a lot of problems and it diminishes that incentive that Republicans currently enjoy via legislating through the Judicial Branch.

As far as winning back the courts, that's one hell of an uphill battle. As you stated, Voters may not care. Also, the Federalist Society is so well funded and organized. The left doesn't have anything close to that. Then, there are the built-in advantages of the EC and Senate that Republicans currently enjoy.

Expanding the courts doesn't solve any long-term problems. It's short-sighted, at best. Term limits just makes things swingier. At any point in court history, having a 6-3 division among left-right lines has not been unusual, and it goes back and forth.

Left-leaning jurists can easily build their own version of a Federalist society if it's needed. but I don't think it is. The natural bend of law interpretation is left-leaning (AFAICT), and the Federalist society was constructed to fight that bend.

 

[One Brow]

Isn't that the entire point of Obergefell? The rights and privileges of straight marriage must be recognized by all 50 states to those of same-sex marriage? If this is returned to the states then wouldn't red states move to what they were doing prior to the 2015 ruling? I could be mistaken here but we almost had several types of civil unions and marriages going on prior to the 2015 ruling.

Obergefell required states to allow same-sex marriages to be performed in their state. From what I can tell, that could be overturned without violating full faith and credit. However, that's a different matter from saying a marriage performed in another state is invalid.

 

[One Brow]

I think the debate for most non-rabid extremists begins with the question of whether the baby owns its body or not? When do rights begin for the infant? That is the crux of it. Some believe it doesn't carry any human rights until it is actually born. Others believe it has rights as soon as it is deemed to be "alive", but then that threshold is endlessly debated as well.

I think the fetus has the rights of full personhood from conception. However, I also think there is no right to use the body of another person for your own benefit.

 

[Gameface]

So gay marriage has been permitted for several years now. What would opponents point to as the negative effects that has had?

 

[One Brow]

Correct and thank you for summing up the decision today. There is no individual freedom to abortion granted by the Constitution and so it is subject to popular vote.

Women don't have a right to self-defense? That's a pretty radical interpretation of rights. Will you also forbid women to carry guns, since the right to self-defense is a key part of their @nd Amendment rights?

 

[Gameface]

I think the fetus has the rights of full personhood from conception. However, I also think there is no right to use the body of another person for your own benefit.

Yeah, what's the saying, your rights end at the tip of my nose?

 

[One Brow]

I highly doubt anyone is going to be investigated for having a miscarriage.

Abortion in El Salvador - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

According to Amnesty International, low-income women who have a miscarriage or a stillbirth are often prosecuted. Often they are reported by medical personnel to the police and subsequently arrested in the hospital. They are wrongly accused of abortion or homicide and sentenced up to 40 years in prison.

I think the anti-abortionists are happy enough to make it illegal so that a woman can't easily walk into a clinic and have an abortion.

There are clinics set up to fool women into not having abortions. There are waiting periods, required ultrasounds, required speeches, etc. that have long been in place. In the places where abortion is about to be banned, no one could easily walk into a clinic and get an abortion.

 

[One Brow]

I think you're being alarmist and taking focus away from the real issues here. What would an investigation into a possible miscarriage/abortion look like? Did that exist before?

Manslaughter conviction of 21-year-old Oklahoma woman who suffered miscarriage sparks outcry

The state argued that the woman's use of methamphetamine caused her miscarriage, despite an autopsy finding no evidence this was the case.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[LogGrad98]

I think the fetus has the rights of full personhood from conception. However, I also think there is no right to use the body of another person for your own benefit.

What right does the mother have to force the fetus to be in her womb? Or to end its life? So her right to not be used by the fetus outweighs the fetus' right to not be killed, even while the fetus never made that choice? Yeah this is a circular argument that has no end and no solution. This is really where the discussion completely breaks down for most people and why it is best to leave this kind of decision up to the mother since there is no way to settle these issues.

 

[LogGrad98]

So gay marriage has been permitted for several years now. What would opponents point to as the negative effects that has had?

It offends there sensitive sensibilities! They have enough to do disowning their young women for having the seks and getting pregnunt.

 

[The Thriller]

So gay marriage has been permitted for several years now. What would opponents point to as the negative effects that has had?

That conservatives and their Republican justices don’t like it. Alito said this:


View: https://youtu.be/8FnJsXHyQSY


They’re not using any form of philosophy other than voicing their cultural grievances through their now majority rulings.

Elections have consequences…

 

[MVP]

USA is becoming more and more appalling as a country. Sorry for all good folks living there. Come to Canada. We may not be perfect but it would be major improvement over what you have in USA now.

 

[One Brow]

What right does the mother have to force the fetus to be in her womb?

None. The fetus should be free to try and implant anywhere.

Or to end its life?

Self-defense.

So her right to not be used by the fetus outweighs the fetus' right to not be killed, even while the fetus never made that choice?

The rights of one person don't outweigh the rights of another. We all have an equal right to live, and an equal right to not be used as a food source by other people.

Yeah this is a circular argument that has no end and no solution. This is really where the discussion completely breaks down for most people and why it is best to leave this kind of decision up to the mother since there is no way to settle these issues.

Agreed. I am offering my take, but I don't expect many to agree.

 

[One Brow]

USA is becoming more and more appalling as a country. Sorry for all good folks living there. Come to Canada. We may not be perfect but it would be major improvement over what you have in USA now.

Some of us live in Illinois, which is not Canada, but endurable.

 

[The Thriller]

I think you're being alarmist and taking focus away from the real issues here. What would an investigation into a possible miscarriage/abortion look like? Did that exist before? Is anyone talking about doing that. Would they force the woman to get a medical examination to maybe prove that it was an abortion? Are states abortion restrictions worded in such a way as to establish anything like this?

One of the justices who was credibly accused of sexual harassment is married to a goddamn insurrectionist. He still gets to weigh in on crimes that his own wife participated in without any accountability. This is insane!

It's funny how so many of us on the left have been proven right despite being called alarmists for several years now. We were right about Trump. We were right about the justices. I think the failure of imagination is what's astonishing to me. Yes, absolutely, LGBT rights are going to be shredded. Yes, absolutely, women, minorities, and liberals will continue to have stomped on by this activist Republican court that has a ton of cultural grievances. Why else did the Federalist Society promote them?

Women are currently being investigated for miscarriages

When Miscarriage Is a Crime

Imagine losing your baby only to be arrested for it. That’s exactly what happened to Marshae Jones. Last June, 27-year-old African-American woman Marshae Jones was indicted by an Alabama grand jury on manslaughter charges when she lost her 5-month-old fetus after being shot. The person who...

www.plannedparenthoodaction.org

There are organizations founded to help women combat prosecution for miscarrying:

Home | Pregnancy Justice

www.nationaladvocatesforpregnantwomen.org

Finally, this only reinforces a stratified society; men on top women below. Women miscarrying are currently having to go through hell to defend themselves from prosecution due to laws like we see in Texas. It’s yet another completely unnecessary hardship they have to endure because of this weird Christian nationalism that has taken hold of the right in this country.

 

[The Thriller]

Some of us live in Illinois, which is not Canada, but endurable.

Canada's climate might also become more habitable than our own. When it's not hot in Utah, we're covered in toxic dust from the GSL's dried lakebed. When it's not hot and dusty, we're choking on winter inversions.

 

[Nate505]

USA is becoming more and more appalling as a country. Sorry for all good folks living there. Come to Canada. We may not be perfect but it would be major improvement over what you have in USA now.

No thanks, I like Colorado.

 

[The Thriller]

No thanks, I like Colorado.

It’s interesting how Colorado and Utah share some similarities but due to religion are drastically culturally different.

 

[LogGrad98]

None. The fetus should be free to try and implant anywhere.


Self-defense.


The rights of one person don't outweigh the rights of another. We all have an equal right to live, and an equal right to not be used as a food source by other people.


Agreed. I am offering my take, but I don't expect many to agree.

The self-defense one is interesting. Another interesting question: is killing the child a form of child abuse? If I found a child eating my food at my house without my permission and killed it that would be viewed as murder, so what is the difference? Even if I woke up and found a child had cut a vein and was sucking my blood and I killed it, would that be viewed as self-defense? What if the child came to be in that situation because I placed it there without giving it a choice? Does that change the judgement of the response to killing it?

This is an insane philosophical discussion, and I am sure there are tons of stuff written about it out there already from all sides. In the end there is no real solution to this conundrum, other than what one chooses to believe for whatever reason. Which is why it needs to be left to the mother to decide as she has to live with the consequences and we will never get any kind of consensus on the rights of a fetus.

 

[One Brow]

If I found a child eating my food at my house without my permission and killed it that would be viewed as murder, so what is the difference?

Would you? That might depend on whether you felt your life was in danger, and whether there were other steps you could take/should take first. It might vary from state-to-state.

Even if I woke up and found a child had cut a vein and was sucking my blood and I killed it, would that be viewed as self-defense?

A child as opposed an adult. Do you have less of a right to self-defense against children? Again, I'm sure laws vary, but in most, if you think your life is in danger and can't reasonably avoid getting out of danger any other way, then it is self-defense.

What if the child came to be in that situation because I placed it there without giving it a choice? Does that change the judgement of the response to killing it?

Are we discussing the law or moral judgment? I don't think you cede your right to self-defense.

This is an insane philosophical discussion, and I am sure there are tons of stuff written about it out there already from all sides. In the end there is no real solution to this conundrum, other than what one chooses to believe for whatever reason. Which is why it needs to be left to the mother to decide as she has to live with the consequences and we will never get any kind of consensus on the rights of a fetus.

I agree. I'm happy to offer thought/opinions/answers as I understand them, but don't expect anyone else to agree.