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Start Keyonte George

Tremendous Upside said:
I don't give a **** about THT, Sexton, Dunn or even Clarkson making a few good plays now and then. The big picture is what matters, and the big picture is that none of these guys should be playing the point for this team (or any major on-ball role for that matter).

The "Wait a minute... THT played pretty well for a quarter, MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING THERE AFTER ALL!" narrative from the last game is making my head hurt. I mean... just stop. It's not that easy to redeeem yourself when you've sucked for god knows how long now.

Start George, now. He's gonna make rookie mistakes, but I'd much rather watch rookie mistakes than THT's vet blunders.
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I don’t think THT playing well for a quarter means much for the future. I don’t think anybody has even said that. If there are people pushing that narrative, I haven’t seen it. A quick look at the game thread shows exactly zero people doing that. Quite frankly, the only time I’ve seen that narrative is from you.

Just being realistic, when one player plays well and another is playing terrible chances are that the player who is playing well will get the finish. It is what it is. Against the Clippers, THT got yanked. Players earning their time is not a bad thing. There are zero coaches who are letting Keyonte finish that game.
 
KqWIN said:
I don’t think THT playing well for a quarter means much for the future. I don’t think anybody has even said that. If there are people pushing that narrative, I haven’t seen it. A quick look at the game thread shows exactly zero people doing that. Quite frankly, the only time I’ve seen that narrative is from you.

Just being realistic, when one player plays well and another is playing terrible chances are that the player who is playing well will get the finish. It is what it is. Against the Clippers, THT got yanked. Players earning their time is not a bad thing. There are zero coaches who are letting Keyonte finish that game.
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The point is that THT needs to be out of the rotation and preferably off this team ASAP. Every minute he plays that could have gone to Keyonte is a waste.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
I don't give a **** about THT, Sexton, Dunn or even Clarkson making a few good plays now and then. The big picture is what matters, and the big picture is that none of these guys should be playing the point for this team (or any major on-ball role for that matter).

The "Wait a minute... THT played pretty well for a quarter, MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING THERE AFTER ALL!" narrative from the last game is making my head hurt. I mean... just stop. It's not that easy to redeeem yourself when you've sucked for god knows how long now.

Start George, now. He's gonna make rookie mistakes, but I'd much rather watch rookie mistakes than THT's vet blunders.
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THT is not a real PG, but out of all our guards he is the one doing best job imitating one.

He has 21 assists and 4 turnovers this season, which is an elite ratio. He is the only one besides George who has somewhat consistently been able to make entry passes. He also has the 2nd best BPM of the 10 rotation guys and the best out of anyone who has averaged more than 20 minutes per game.

Everyone sees the warts including the inadequate defense, but throwing him under the bus for the struggles is rich. Clarkson is taking and missing way more shots and ACTUALLY turning the ball over, while Sexton is not looking to pass the ball much at all and has almost equal FG line (attempts and efficiency) to THT in 20% less minutes.

I do agree on the principle of starting George, but THT has been the best of our 4 veteran guards by far, and I would start him with Keyonte at this point.
 
Maybe I'm dumb (wait a minute...!) but I just don't understand why THT is still in the picture. I guess this ties into not knowing what the true goals of this season are. If we're trying to win – we'll, THT is not a winning player. If we're trying to develop future building blocks and get them as many reps playing together as possible – he's not one of those guys either. If we're straight up trying to lose – THT is so erratic that he may occasionally pull out a win out of his *** by playing brilliantly for 3 minutes at a critical point. He just doesn't make sense.

HermanG said:
THT is not a real PG, but out of all our guards he is the one doing best job imitating one.

He has 21 assists and 4 turnovers this season, which is an elite ratio.
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Without diving into advanced stats, I'd say that THT rarely looks to facilitate. When he tries something risky, it's usually some crazy drive or half-blind stepback three. His passes don't get picked off because he doesn't try to thread any needles. He feeds Lauri short passes on perimeter actions, often leading to 3pt makes which obviously count as assists, and he's pretty good at passing to corner shooters. There are lots of examples of dudes with excellent pass/turnover ratios who still aren't anything special as point guards, and THT is definitely one of them.

One of the most important advanced stats is Win Shares per 48, and surprise surprise, THT is terrible there. He's far below league average, together with our other combo guards.

(Oh, by the way – I have no idea how you can say that THT can throw entry passes. IMO he's just as bad (or unwilling) as Sexton and Clarkson.)
 
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Tremendous Upside said:
Without diving into advanced stats, I'd say that THT rarely looks to facilitate. When he tries something risky, it's usually some crazy drive or half-blind stepback three. His passes don't get picked off because he doesn't try to thread any needles. He feeds Lauri short passes on perimeter actions, often leading to 3pt makes which obviously count as assists, and he's pretty good at passing to corner shooters. There are lots of examples of dudes with excellent pass/turnover ratios who still aren't anything special as point guards, and THT is definitely one of them.

One of the most important advanced stats is Win Shares per 48, and surprise surprise, THT is terrible there. He's far below league average, together with our other combo guards.

(Oh, by the way – I have no idea how you can say that THT can throw entry passes. IMO he's just as bad (or unwilling) as Sexton and Clarkson.)
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I will take a look into those stats for you.

THT ranks 19th in total assists and 14th in asssists per 36 minutes (min 50 minutes played)
THT assist% is 31.3 which ranks 17th for all 170 players who have started at least 1 game.
THT AST/TO ratio is 5.25, which ranks 9th among starters
THT assist ratio is 31.8 which ranks 15th among starters

Also last game he had 12 FGA and 8 assists (7 to Kessler, 1 to Lauri) most of which were entry passes as far as I can remember.

Btw, almost all of those numbers are better than those of Mike Conley's this season.

I get that you dont like the mental image you have of the guy, but in the actual games this season he has taken Hardy's assignment to heart and performed better than I personally expected. I know Cy would say he knew it was coming, but I honestly didn't.
 
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I am impressed with his play so far and like him getting more minutes. According to NBA.com though he has the worst defensive rating and the lowest net rating on the team. It also has him and John Collins as our lowest defensive win shares. His offensive rating is 10th right between John Collins and Sexton.
 
I'll eat some crow by saying that I was aware of THT's passes to Kessler right under the basket (particularly in the Denver game), but didn't mentally ackowledge them as "facilitating" since those plays always seem like the pass is the last option for THT. His main goal is to score.

Anyway, overall he sucks as a PG! I'll always have that.
 
HermanG said:
I will take a look into those stats for you.

THT ranks 19th in total assists and 14th in asssists per 36 minutes (min 50 minutes played)
THT assist% is 31.3 which ranks 17th for all 170 players who have started at least 1 game.
THT AST/TO ratio is 5.25, which ranks 9th among starters
THT assist ratio is 31.8 which ranks 15th among starters

Also last game he had 12 FGA and 8 assists (7 to Kessler, 1 to Lauri) most of which were entry passes as far as I can remember.

Btw, almost all of those numbers are better than those of Mike Conley's this season.

I get that you dont like the mental image you have of the guy, but in the actual games this season he has taken Hardy's assignment to heart and performed better than I personally expected. I know Cy would say he knew it was coming, but I honestly didn't.
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THT had a really good game against Denver. With how long he is, he is able to make plays over the top of the defense, and had a really nice connection with Kessler last game. By my count THT is now at 2.5 good games and 1.5 bad games.
 
Tremendous Upside said:
I'll eat some crow by saying that I was aware of THT's passes to Kessler right under the basket (particularly in the Denver game), but didn't mentally ackowledge them as "facilitating" since those plays always seem like the pass is the last option for THT. His main goal is to score.

Anyway, overall he sucks as a PG! I'll always have that.
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I agree that we dont have a real starter level PG right now and none of our guards are "pass first". But unless there is a trade lined up we need to start someone.

Also while I'm not sure how much of a statistical aberration it is, THT has shot the 3 pointers really well in the first half. We have fallen to a lot of early deficits but he is one guy who has hit his early shots. He is 5/9 on first half 3 pointers.

Now its a whole different discussion who should be closing games for us. That is more or less related to the weather and wind direction since the quality of the guys we have is pretty flat across the board.
 
THT is his typical roller coaster self so far this season
The good: Career high 3 point percentage of 40%. Career high assist per game of 5.3. Career low turnovers per game.
The bad: Career low field goal percentage of 37%. Career low free throw attempts (1.5) and percentage (67%). career low of rebounds per game (1.8)

Just so unpredictable and inconsistent. I would say overall he has been slightly better than his standard play. The high assists, low turnovers, and high 3 point percentage are more good than the other stats are bad imo.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
THT had a really good game against Denver. With how long he is, he is able to make plays over the top of the defense, and had a really nice connection with Kessler last game. By my count THT is now at 2.5 good games and 1.5 bad games.
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From our guards I will gladly take that. That is the type of consistency Clarkson has only dreamed of. Clarkson will get hot again but he is usually about 50/50 across a season. He is great for a team trying to be .500 if you start him. In the 6th man role its fine.

The main area THT needs to improve at his his driving and finishing right now. At the rim he is only shooting .500 and 0-10 feet is .33% which is awful and pretty much the same as Clarkson. But his passing and 3 point shooting has been solid. Per 100 possessions THT is 14th in assists in the NBA at 10.8. Its hard to complain about his passing. Its in the top half of NBA PGs. Really our weakest spot right now is Clarkson by a significant amount.
 
THT and sexton did their job Vs Denver. they worked hard while in there. It’s clarkson who was off. His mind was somewhere else. He can give us atleast 15 pts but instead scored just 4. I don’t even recall a game where he scored this low. Was also surprised he only took 10 shots. Very unclarkson like
 
Keyonte can be a starter if we tank. Portland start Scoot who should be better then Keyonte and they are pretty bad. If we are 2-8 after 10, i do hope he got some start and more minutes. But we are not here yet and THT is doing the job. He will never be fantastic but he is acceptable regarding the level of the team.
 
Current stats of 2023 first rounders. Keyonte seems to be doing pretty well both in opportunities to play and production:

WrDiE8g.jpg


Taken from:
https://www.basketball-reference.com/draft/NBA_2023.html

As an aside: I've seen two Pistons games and Ausar can't shoot, but is a really good basketball player.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
The only thing I'm taking from this chart is that Cason Wallace leads all rookies in Win Shares.
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Its his insane shooting percentages.

However here is a fun fact: Exactly 100% of Wallace's buckets have been assisted. He has hit his shots but hasnt created much for himself or for others (with just 4 assists in 82 total minutes).
 
HermanG said:
Its his insane shooting percentages.

However here is a fun fact: Exactly 100% of Wallace's buckets have been assisted. He has hit his shots but hasnt created much for himself or for others (with just 4 assists in 82 total minutes).
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That stat isn't true, not sure where you are getting it from. I've witnessed him get an open court steal for a dunk, hit a midrange pull up, and get a putback layup. None of those were assisted.

The broader point is absolutely true. He isn't doing much on ball and probably has one of the least touches per minute of anyone in the NBA. On the other hand his points per touch is probably one of the highest in the NBA because as you noted the crazy high (and unsustainable) shooting numbers.

Since this is a Keyonte George thread, I'll get it back on track. Keyonte has a way higher potential on offense than Cason because he can get wherever he wants to on the court and is much more aggressive at getting shots up.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
That stat isn't true, not sure where you are getting it from. I've witnessed him get an open court steal for a dunk, hit a midrange pull up, and get a putback layup. None of those were assisted.

The broader point is absolutely true. He isn't doing much on ball and probably has one of the least touches per minute of anyone in the NBA. On the other hand his points per touch is probably one of the highest in the NBA because as you noted the crazy high (and unsustainable) shooting numbers.

Since this is a Keyonte George thread, I'll get it back on track. Keyonte has a way higher potential on offense than Cason because he can get wherever he wants to on the court and is much more aggressive at getting shots up.
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Its just NBA.com stats.
1698849516551.png

FWIW, Keyonte's %assisted is 45.5
 
SoberasHotRod said:
That stat isn't true, not sure where you are getting it from. I've witnessed him get an open court steal for a dunk, hit a midrange pull up, and get a putback layup. None of those were assisted.

The broader point is absolutely true. He isn't doing much on ball and probably has one of the least touches per minute of anyone in the NBA. On the other hand his points per touch is probably one of the highest in the NBA because as you noted the crazy high (and unsustainable) shooting numbers.

Since this is a Keyonte George thread, I'll get it back on track. Keyonte has a way higher potential on offense than Cason because he can get wherever he wants to on the court and is much more aggressive at getting shots up.
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Btw I went to check all his FGA and I think he has 2 midrangers that are pretty iffy about being assisted. One of his two misses is also assisted, while the other miss instead is clearly an unassisted attempt. Didn't find the dunk you referred to, nor the putback layup (instead he had few clearly assisted buckets from under the rim).

Can check them out for yourself, but apart from the interpretation of the assisted term (two makes are pull ups after few dribbles from receiving the ball), the stats seem to be correct.

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