Doublea
Well-Known Member
Burks starting bro, I could care less about Jefferson.
Hayward has the size of a 3, but also the skills of a 2.
Can we just release Burke and Hayward?
- Thread starter Stifle Tower
- Start date
Burks starting bro, I could care less about Jefferson.
Hayward has the size of a 3, but also the skills of a 2.
fishonjazz
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I disagree
I think he SHOULD be a small forward but i think the jaz believe he is a shooting guard and have used him that way most of the time
Holy **** this is the worst post ever.
Hayward is a playmaker. He has to be used like a playmaker.
I know he is white and all white people should be dead-eye shooters, but Hayward is weird. He isn't a great shooter, he has to pick and choose his shots to have good %. He can be a good 3pt shooter in that regard. We have to change his shots to his strengths (more spot ups, like Russel I guess) but we still have to give him the ball to take advantage of having a wing playmaker.
I know he is white and all white people should be dead-eye shooters, but Hayward is weird. He isn't a great shooter, he has to pick and choose his shots to have good %. He can be a good 3pt shooter in that regard. We have to change his shots to his strengths (more spot ups, like Russel I guess) but we still have to give him the ball to take advantage of having a wing playmaker.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Nothing screams championship more than a "playmaking" SF who can't shoot and a 6 foot PG used as a SG.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
We...haven't...seen..what...this...team...can...do...when...healthy.
Favors is bothered by a hip injury. Burke's finger is still weak. Hayward has been out at times. Kanter has been suffering from a bruised ego all season. Just need to get them all back and let them gel.
And with so much roster churn, I don't think Corbin has been given a fair shake, either. With the new draft picks coming in, our current "youngsters" will be the veterans next year. Lindsey needs to give Corbin another year to evaluate him fairly. See what Ty can do once he has legit starters at every position and a bench of NBA-level talent.
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akirac73
Well-Known Member
Gordon Hayward myth #945. Hayward as the Jazz's primary playmaker/ball-handler = 1-13 record to start the season. I'll pass (pun intended).
Did I ever say I wanted him to be the primary playermaker? He has to be a playmaker though. You don't treat him and Byron Russel as the same player. Go back to mediocre posting please.
The problem with Hayward is that he has been asked to be the primary playmaker. It was a good move to test to see if he could do that, because it shows the league his limits. I don't think he is going to get an offer over 12/million. I think most teams would be willing to sign him to that, but would be weary to go above it.
Hayward can still get a lot better, but it isn't in the primary playmaker role.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Let's go back to the Hayward model of last season. I'm not saying "Alfense." Let's just have Hayward have fewer touches. Let the PG do what he was drafted for, and have Hayward shoot like a "shooting" guard should. He can still facilitate. AK had that role and was getting plenty of chances for assists, but he was never called on to be the "point forward."
Reading what CT has just posted, I think we're closer in agreement than I first thought.
Primetime
Active Member
That is one of people's arguments I hate the most. And different people use it every time they try to make a point. Enes and Derrick doesn't work together(see 1-13 start), OMG our core sucks(see 1-13 start) and now Gordon can't be a playmaker(see 1-13 start). Seriously people it's not like we just didn't have Trey. We also didn't have Marvin and Evans! So we didn't have 3 of our rotation guys. And it's not like we can afford to lose more than one player.
So please people stop using that argument. Please!!!
akirac73
Well-Known Member
You're right, you never said "primary" playmaker. I think we can agree that the results have been disastrous with the offense running primarily through Hayward. I have no problem with Hayward being a secondary playmaker, sort of like how Jeff Hornacek was on the Jazz (averaging 3-4 assists/game).
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
So can we all agree Corbin might be at the heart of the problem?
I don't think there is a single poster on the board who wants Corbin back next year. There are varying values of blame and praise we lay on him, but I don't think anyone wants him back.
fishonjazz
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I think frank does.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
franklin (in real life, Mrs. Ty?).
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
If you think his numbers are "inflated" because of his minutes than look at his advanced stats and it will give you a better idea of how he is doing! I made a list of wing players who got more than 1000 minutes this season and ranked them based on AST%, REB% and FTr(Alec is also on that list!).
I don't know how you define "exceptionally well" but his passing and playmaking is elite in my book(compared to wings!). His rebounding ain't elite but he is above average and it has nothing to do with the minutes he gets. I agree with the defensiv part but really who is an above average defender on this team? We just have Derrick who is above average and that's it. And more than individual defensive guys this team needs a coach who can implant TEAM DEFENSE. Like coach Clifford did in Charlotte. And he ain't getting to the line like an elite wing but again he is above average in that depature as well.
Why is him passing to outside shooters a problem? It's not like he is standing on the perimeter and passing to his left or his right and says "shoot it". There are really two possibilitys. He can drive to the basket or he can play a PnR with one of our bigs.
When he drives to the basket he can either dish or kick it to the outside. And defenses don't allow a drive and dish so much in the NBA. So it is up to the ball handler to make the right read. If the dish is not there than he have to find the open man at the perimeter and that's not a bad thing at all because it's a wide open shot most of the times.
When he runs a PnR with either Enes or Derrick there are the similar options. You find the roll(Derrick), the pop(Enes) or the outside shot. If the defense does not allow you the roll/pop than you gotta kick it out. And that wouldn't be a bad thing either.
He is doing a good job when he drives to the basket. I really don't remember situations where he didn't dish the ball in favor of an outside shot but he could do a better job in PnR situatins with Derrick but that really isn't just Gordon's problem.
And I totally disagree with your second part I don't see him as a top 2 scoring option on a team with quality players(he would be the 3rd or 4th opion) but I would still let him handle the ball and create for others even with quality players!
A lot to respond to.
First off, I'm not too sure how much I like the parameters of your comparison. There are only 13 players in the entire NBA who have played more minutes than Hayward this season. So lumping him in with guys playing "over 1000" seems a little odd. The difference between 1000 and Hayward is 10 minutes a game.
Second, I don't quite understand your selection of stats to compare. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but Ast% and Reb% seems worthless to me. It indicates that Hayward gets a high percentage of the team assists and rebounds, which would be expected given his minutes and how much he controls the ball. On the plus side, Hayward grades out very well positionally in his per minute assists and rebound stats. And I think he is solid in these categories.
Third, the FT% stat just seems like cherrypicking. Hayward has always done well at getting to the line. But this shouldn't be confused with an ability to get to the rim, to "attack". He's shooting 49% at the rim last I checked which is pathetic. He gets to the line because he possesses the ball so much, not to mention he's been above average on the break.
What your comparison leaves out is how Hayward compares to guys playing actually similar minutes in categories like scoring. His shooting numbers are horrific as his attempts have increased. Furthermore, my speculation is that his stats are inflated by how much he handles the ball. He isn't suited to be a primary ball handler, but on our team he is. With half the touches he gets, which would happen on any team with a true star, his numbers will regress.
Hayward is a good player. But that's all he is. Good. The question is only what the going salary for good is.
billyshelby
Well-Known Member
My concern with Burke is he mostly seems physically overmatched. He's not tall, quick, he can't drive, and doesn't have an offensive move. I worry that his only offensive skill is going to be inefficient pull ups while he plays less than adequate defense -- in other words, a backup.
What gives me hope is his clutch ability. Andre Miller is not an exceptional athlete, but he knows how to play the game, and I could see Burke becoming similar. On the flip side, Miller was only an average starter. I would be thrilled if Burke turns into Miller, but that's his ceiling from what I see.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
franklin, I summon thee.
spycam1
Well-Known Member
Regretting it already btw.