I really do want to like the guy, but his numbers are absolutely dismal. Do you think that just doesn't matter?
The Jazz rebuild
- Thread starter @nsanba
- Start date
I really do want to like the guy, but his numbers are absolutely dismal. Do you think that just doesn't matter?
Another team that's rebuilding quickly is Minnesota. Look at the young talent they've picked up---Wiggins, Bennett, Shabazz, Lavine, Dieng.
And, oh look, their record is actually worse than ours. That's what rebuilding looks like.
And, oh look, their record is actually worse than ours. That's what rebuilding looks like.
All of those guys are playing on their rookie deals.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Rebuilding quickly? The T-Wolves last made the playoffs in 2004. This is what fans are hoping for? Yikes.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
What, by adding leftover FA vets to a team that isn't good? It's terrible strategy for anything other than treading water. Sorry, but I don't see a scenario where we fix our problems without getting a star player or two. Draft picks can also be traded, so maybe we trade our high pick next year in a deal for a star. Otherwise, it seems to me that you're saying you'd rather watch a mediocre team every year than gamble on something better. That's fine, and you certainly aren't alone, but I can't go along.
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Honestly, this is the line of thinking that leads a GM to think Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva would be good FAs to sign. Sometimes no moves are better than just trying to compete right now, future be damned.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
How about Houston? I remember being ridiculed for suggesting they had a good strategy by stockpiling assets. People thought they were nuts, and yet they pulled off a quick rebuild while we were busy chasing 8 seeds. I was also right about GS when everybody was demanding that a losing culture could not be overcome. On the other hand, you have teams like the Knicks who are always trading away their future because they absolutely have to win now.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Hardly. A year after letting Al and Sap walk for nothing, the Jazz re-upped Gordo because you can't let players walk for nothing. Again, DL was handed a good situation, with two fringe all-stars and 4 lottery picks on rookie deals playing on a playoff team. He's turned that into overpaid young players who'll be lucky to combine to make 2 all star games on pace to win <30 games in consecutive seasons. He's neither traded nor traded for a decent player. His biggest free agent signing in 3 offseasons is Trevor Booker.
The team is virtually unwatchable. What's entertaining about waiting for the draft lottery every year?
GVC
Well-Known Member
How about Houston? They haven't had a single sub-.500 team under Daryl Morey. Morey maximizes his assets, moving players before they leave for nothing or demand big contracts they won't live up to. He's the anti-DL.
The W's haven't had a top 5 pick since 2002. That team was built with mid-lottery picks, trades and in free agency.
DL seems to be emulating the Wolves, recent Kings and 90s Clippers. Should be a fun decade.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Ok, we obviously aren't gonna see eye to eye on this, so time to agree to disagree. I think we are just fine right now and I'm willing to wait it out to who's right.
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I agree with the fact that mistakes have been made, but the biggest flub was KOCs during the lockout year. After that we were headed for a long rebuild, and I said so at the time, so I'm not at all surprised that that's where we are at.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Which DL moves/decisions look like winners at this point? Is there really any reason to believe he's an above average GM?
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I thought matching Hayward was a mistake, and it may still end up being so, but I have to say it looks like a good move so far. I actually agree with your concerns about the money we're paying out, I just have my doubts about better options being available. As much as I was against matching Hayward, I don't think Utah had a lot of other options. The biggest thing for me is whether or not any of those contracts are untradeable, and right now I'm only slightly concerned.
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As for DL, you may end up being right, but I don't think you can make that call at this point. I still think we could be back in a big way by next year, but if it takes longer, I'm fine with it because sometimes building too quickly just results in a team that never gets past the first round.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I have no issue with patiently building a good team. There are options other than sitting on your hands doing nothing or signing mediocre free agents to bloated deals, however. DL hasn't been particularly proactive to date.
He did nothing with Al and Sap, he was wrong about the market for Gordo, he overpaid Alec. Hell, his two lottery picks are players he didn't even get in for workouts. They also play the same position...poorly. Sure, things could look better by next year, but it just looks to me like the Jazz are in a worse position to rebuild now than they were when DL took over.
This is something that is bothering me as well... It seems like having players for workouts is very important in the scouting process - it lets you try specific things with them that you have worries about... This is not to say that those players we selected and didn't see workout won't turn out OK at the end, but it seemed worrying for me, too. I guess part of it is making those players to want to come work out, since we can't force them. It looks like the only player we selected and had for a workout in the last two years, we are loving so far(Gobert). I can't remember if Giannis came and worked out for the Jazz(anybody knows?). I can't believe he did and we chose not to get him...
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Honest question: What kind of dumbass expects a 19 year old to come in and have an immediate impact? And Lmao at AKMVP lurking to rep that post. Still rooting for Exum to bust because you're more of a fan of being right than you are of the Jazz. That's just sad.
There's a difference between waiting for na imediate impact and waiting for more than what he is providing. That doesn't mean he's a bust. He has shown some signs but some folks are over reacting on what he has shown.
Stockpiling draft picks isn't some sort of fool proof plan either. In fact I will go on record and say that stockpiling high draft picks is detrimental to their development. High draft picks have their higher value before they are made. Trading "should" result into a bigger payoff than drafting them and having them diminish their progresso both on the court and on the trade market. For instance, Kanter and Burks will never get the chance to show what they can do like Favs and G were allowed to last year. And by that regard they are less impactfull to the Jazz and even less impactful in the trade market.
It took S&M 5 years to get out of the first round. Sometimes getting ousted in the 2st round isn't the worst thing in the world.
Jazz aren't in a great position to do a trade. If you consider that G, Gobert and Exum are the guys the Jazz would not trade then what have you? Kanter's trade value going into FA isn't high, if you trade Favors you're all but guaranteing you're going to massively overpay Kanter and you have to take that into consideration, you can't trade Burke cause if not Exum would be on fr a RUDE awakening, Burks is a PPP player this year and very hard to trade. So basically you have your 2015 pick that the team seems intended into keeping.
Well Hood, Booker, Novak, Evans, Murry and Clark aren't going to bring you in any kind of a huge benefit.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Who said it was fool proof? Still waiting for a better alternative, and signing band-aid contracts to keep us hovering around the 13th pick is as close to a one-way street to mediocrity hell as you can get. No thanks, I'm willing to be patient with a rebuild that really only started last year.
I would give my left nut to get back to the second round. I'd love to hear how we get there without adding a star or two. Mediocre talent ain't gonna cut it, and star players aren't coming here in FA. Maybe DL could have made a trade by now, but he could have also ****ed it up by signing/trading for guys like Ben Gordon or Charlie Villanueva. Sometimes no moves are better than desperation moves. Not really interested in being Dumars Pistons or the NY Knicks without the FA draw. That's what impatience gets you.
I might have overstated our trade assets, but it's certainly not as bad as some are making it out to be. We have GS's 2017 pick, so that means we could keep our 2015 pick, and then trade 2 consecutive firsts, as well as a million 2nds with a handful of young players. As for our players, I don't consider anyone to be untouchable. If you package picks with young players, we certainly do have assets to pull off a trade. That doesn't mean anything is guaranteed, just like nothing is guaranteed no matter what you do. The closest thing you'll get to a guarantee, is that as long as Utah can't find a star or two, they are going to struggle, and no amount of Band-Aid management is ever going to get us back to being a serious contender.
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Also, I think a lot of fans lack a true appreciation for just how much harder it is to build a team in Utah than most of the rest of the league. I still think we are doing fine right now. Successful rebuilding usually requires multiple high draft picks, and that can't happen when you're constantly trying to scrape into the 8th seed. I realize the team is basically unwatchable and I don't blame anyone for being frustrated, but it comes with the territory when you're trying to build a team capable of becoming legit.
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Tell you what, I'm willing to keep an open mind. Which teams do think we should try to emulate? The spurs have had their big three forever, but once they retire, I'm betting they end up in the same place as us. Sorry, but when you consider our huge disadvantage when competing for FAs, it makes building through the draft that much more crucial.
I'm not against building trough the draft. and I haven't giving up on the team either. But folks need to realize that this team as it looks may have been mismanaged to the point the rebuild will last far more and end with much diferente players. That to me is botching the rebuild.
We don't want to be the Knicks or Pistons, but we also don't want to be the Magic, the Bobcats or the Warriors and Clippers of old. If you continue to go for the BIG thing in the lottery you might just perpetuate a losing circle that is awfull to escape. Let's see how players will want to come and play in Utah if the Jazz endure 5 years of losing (for instance).
We don't want to be the Knicks or Pistons, but we also don't want to be the Magic, the Bobcats or the Warriors and Clippers of old. If you continue to go for the BIG thing in the lottery you might just perpetuate a losing circle that is awfull to escape. Let's see how players will want to come and play in Utah if the Jazz endure 5 years of losing (for instance).
GVC
Well-Known Member
If getting a true star or two is absolutely necessary to contend, and the late 1st and 2nd round picks you've mentioned repeatedly have actual value, why are the Jazz paying three non-stars $38mil combined?
Do you think Alec, a 6th man making $10mil, or Gordo, who'll be lucky to make more than one all star team (if that), have more trade value now or in the two seasons before they signed their deals? Why would a team trade a young star for Gordo at the max and some 2nds, late 1sts and overpaid complementary players?
If the plan is to tank, and pray for a franchise player in the draft, what's with the half measures? The only player DL has traded is Randy Foye.