Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
What championship winning star has been drafted in the second round?
The Jazz rebuild
- Thread starter @nsanba
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GVC
Well-Known Member
The Jazz would also have been improving their own pick. They got nothing for letting Al and Paul walk.
Just to clarify, Darkwing, I entered this thread quoting freak stating that the FO is doing exactly what they should be doing. My main points are:
1. The Jazz are in a worse position to build a contender now than they were in the summer of 2012 when DL took over.
2. The Jazz suck right now.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Yep, I actually just logged back in to correct my mistake. So a limited market to allow teams to exceed the cap to re-sign either. However, given their salaries and the lack of interest, I would say it was a VERY small market. Millsap had virtually zero suitors until Utah made the GS deal. Then he hastily accepted the low Atlanta offer. And I don't recall a ton of teams clamoring to sign Jefferson. Charlotte was able to get him no problem.
Again, it comes down to what teams had a) players they would have been willing to trade, b) would not have had >1 year left on their contract (DL and KOC were openly opposed to taking on multiple-year deals); c) had a reason to actually do a deal. The universe was very, very small. I'd have to go back through my posts at that time, as I know I put a list in one of the trade threads. I doubt I kept the Excel sheet from that long ago.
Some of the deals had been discussed. For example, Bledsoe. But the rumor was they wanted another piece (Burks?). In hindsight, would Bledsoe at a max (or near) max salary have helped the team? Certainly. Could have had Bledsoe at PG, Hayward at SG or SF and brought in a wing to replace Burks. But that really wasn't your "all out tank." With Bledsoe on the team, I seriously doubt the Jazz get a top-10 pick.
Again, it comes down to what teams had a) players they would have been willing to trade, b) would not have had >1 year left on their contract (DL and KOC were openly opposed to taking on multiple-year deals); c) had a reason to actually do a deal. The universe was very, very small. I'd have to go back through my posts at that time, as I know I put a list in one of the trade threads. I doubt I kept the Excel sheet from that long ago.
Some of the deals had been discussed. For example, Bledsoe. But the rumor was they wanted another piece (Burks?). In hindsight, would Bledsoe at a max (or near) max salary have helped the team? Certainly. Could have had Bledsoe at PG, Hayward at SG or SF and brought in a wing to replace Burks. But that really wasn't your "all out tank." With Bledsoe on the team, I seriously doubt the Jazz get a top-10 pick.
framer
Well-Known Member
This is immaterial. The Jazz got plenty of draft picks by trading the capspace that they received by purging their payroll of Sap and Jeff to Golden State. I'm pretty certain that we wouldn't have gotten 2 unprotected firsts and 2 seconds for trading those guys at the deadline, so this was actually a win for DL. Functionally we traded AL and Paul for Hood and 3 guys we will get later. Had we traded them during the lockout year, I agree we could have possibly gotten some players back that might have been building blocks, but I kind of like the draft picks better (because I'll always take what is behind box #3)
GVC
Well-Known Member
1. Trading Al and/or Sap wouldn't have affected their ability to pull off the GS trade if they only received players on expiring deals.
2. The Jazz also would have improved their draft pick.
GVC
Well-Known Member
How many teams without cap space in the summer of 2013 would have jumped at Millsap at his current salary? Bird. Rights.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Sounds like you think management should cater to fans who can't see past the current season. Well, now we're seeing the results of that kind of thinking. If this was the better alternative, I'd hate to see what would have happened if we had screwed up.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Didn't say that. Certainly if we never had a "superstar" but had all-star quality starters plus a talented bench, we'd be competitive. Conversely, you can have a superstar but be terrible (New York, Brooklyn). But I say the goal is to be at least competitive in the playoffs. Was it entertaining to get swept by the Lakers and miss the playoffs with our "veteran" team? Would our f ate have been any different with a team led by Millsap, Hayward, Favors and fill-in vets? That's a mid-tier team. Maybe an 8th seed, or one that gets a late lottery pick.
And as another poster has illustrated, just as many stars have been taken AFTER #1-3. Cousins, Curry, Kobe, Malone, Stockton, etc. For every Bogut, you have a Chris Paul. For every John Wall, you have a comparable star like George go lower. Or you have a Hayward go later than an Evan Turner. Jazz "tanked" by having a poor roster. They made the GS deal to acquire more picks, They did that by using the cap space available by NOT accepting longer-term salaries for Big Al. The argument re: nothing for Millsap is really moot. KOC and the Millers wanted to re-sign him. So there wasn't a chance in hell Paul would have been traded except for getting a all-star in return. And Bledsoe was the only player that came up in rumors, as I've already mentioned.
I think #3 or #4 was the absolute BEST pick the Jazz could have come up with last season. Again, Cleveland won the lottery. Milwaukee had an EPIC tank. Could we have lost more than Philly? Perhaps. So even in that scenario, do the Jazz draft an injured Embiid or Exum? They already had Favors, Gobert and Kanter. Maybe they go with Embiid or maybe they go with Exum. I tend to think they'd still have gone with Dante. Probably close in terms of ranking and Exum wins by a huge margin if you factor in position of need as a tiebreaker.
This year? Hard to imagine Utah out-tanking Philly, Detroit and maybe even New York. So again, very unlikely to get a top-3 pick. And to be honest, the talent from 4-8 looks to be nearly equal, just as it was last season. Had the Jazz drafted someone else instead of Dante, we'd be laughing at Exum's stats with Team X and be overjoyed with what Smart or Stauskas or Payton was giving us.
The rebuild will not fail because we got the #7 pick instead of the #4. It will fail if Exum is not better than Smart, or if we take Johnson over Winslow and Winslow blows up (or vice versa using any players as an example). There WILL be superstars drafted in the 4-10 spots of 2014 and 2015. There will be busts.
As for failure to rebuild before last summer, arguments are all valid. KOC was in charge and the jazz tried to "re-tool" with vets. He took a chance with Big Al (in an attempt to placate Deron), then Mo and Foye, trading for Marvin, etc. I guess if one is satisfied with just making the playoffs, that was a decent strategy. And maybe the Jazz DO find a Malone or Stockton in that 12-14 draft range when every playoff team in the WC wins 50 and they miss with 40+ wins.
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fishonjazz
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This
Ya gvc, if the perfect situation was out there and the jazz passed it up then they made a mistake.
Extremely unlikely
GVC
Well-Known Member
Even if I accept this and/or that any other move made by DL in isolation in the last 2+ years is understandable, it still looks like:
1. The Jazz are further away (in terms of total assets) from building a contender today than they were in the summer of 2012.
2. The on-court product is ****.
Given those two conclusions, I simply can't agree that DL has done a good job thus far. While "incomplete" may be the most accurate grade for his performance, if pressed to give him an actual letter grade, there's no way I'm going above C.
QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
Really? GS trade? Brilliant imo. Exum? The supposed consensus top five guy who's the swing for the fence pick we all wanted. Gobert? Great so far. Hood? Solid from what we've seen and IMO I think a strong future starter. So what am I missing? Because he didn't trade Millsap and Jefferson, he's average? As if teams were knocking his socks off for them? Because of Burke who was evidently a clear Corbin's last stand pick?
fishonjazz
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I can dig it.
However I dont think the on court product is ****.
I think this team has alot of talent and the future is very bright (good and multiple draft picks coming up. Young talented tradeable players. Lots of players with upside who will improve. Some cap flexibility left. Hopefully a good coach to develop the players and a good gm)
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
What assets did they have in summer of 12?
No draft pick that year.
Jefferson at 14 M a year.
Millsap was expiring.
1/3 of the league projected to have cap space per this article in 2013. https://www.shamsports.com/2013/06/the-amount-of-cap-room-teams-will.html Millsap didn't move the needle that much and was signed at a shocking bargain.
Jazz had an obvious plan since the Williams trade. See if we can make the playoffs with the roster we have until 2013 when EVERYTHING but the rookie contracts are gone, then see what happens. Teams with space, likely lotto teams, weren't going to give up assets for Millsap, and trading expiring for expiring with teams with no cap is lateral movement, and the Jazz weren't taking on long term salary to jettison Millsap.
The true rebuild started in the offseason in 2013. That's where it starts. Not the '12 offseason or the '13 trade deadline. That's when Lindsay's evaluation should start. That year's draft was the trade for Burke, a good value trade. Then the cap space for picks. Then purchasing Gobert. '14 trade deadline was a wash since NO first round picks were traded and the biggest name traded was Spencer Hawes. '14 draft were obvious picks, given Exum and Hood fell from pre-draft predictions. Booker is a good value signing. Novak trade is irrelevant. Hayward match seems right choice. Burks extension looks shaky.
No draft pick that year.
Jefferson at 14 M a year.
Millsap was expiring.
1/3 of the league projected to have cap space per this article in 2013. https://www.shamsports.com/2013/06/the-amount-of-cap-room-teams-will.html Millsap didn't move the needle that much and was signed at a shocking bargain.
Jazz had an obvious plan since the Williams trade. See if we can make the playoffs with the roster we have until 2013 when EVERYTHING but the rookie contracts are gone, then see what happens. Teams with space, likely lotto teams, weren't going to give up assets for Millsap, and trading expiring for expiring with teams with no cap is lateral movement, and the Jazz weren't taking on long term salary to jettison Millsap.
The true rebuild started in the offseason in 2013. That's where it starts. Not the '12 offseason or the '13 trade deadline. That's when Lindsay's evaluation should start. That year's draft was the trade for Burke, a good value trade. Then the cap space for picks. Then purchasing Gobert. '14 trade deadline was a wash since NO first round picks were traded and the biggest name traded was Spencer Hawes. '14 draft were obvious picks, given Exum and Hood fell from pre-draft predictions. Booker is a good value signing. Novak trade is irrelevant. Hayward match seems right choice. Burks extension looks shaky.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
After trading Deron for rebuilding pieces, Utah could have justified going into a full rebuild, especially considering that even with Deron, that team had regressed to the point they were looking to miss the playoffs. No doubt a lot of fans would have been pissed. Just like the short-sighted GS fans that booed their FO during Mullin's jersey retirement, because they didn't like a rebuilding move that traded the present for the future. I'm pretty sure every single one of those fans would be glad their FO ignored what the fan base thought. It would have been a gamble, just like it was gamble to risk losing 2 borderline all-stars for nothing, when the odds where greatly in favor that rebuilding was inevitable. Just how much we lost on our choice of a gamble remains to be seen.
Darkwing Duck
Well-Known Member
Sure, but when Williams was traded, Harris had two more years. Jefferson had two more years. Millsap had two more years. Bell had two more years. Rebuilding would have required EVERYONE to go, something that wasn't guaranteed and if you failed to get rid of everyone, then you're hamstrung by the contract. Harris had been an all star, so there was hope the Jazz could compete. Couldn't have traded all of them at the deadline. Jazz had 4 lotto picks coming in the next year, so there was youth and experience. So even more hope that the Jazz could rebuild on the fly. Why tear it down even more when Hayward and Favors were going into their second year, and Kanter and Burks just got drafted? Then the lockout happened, which made deal making incredibly difficult before the season started, then that year the Jazz made the playoffs, giving the Jazz front office more hope that this rebuild would work. Then 2012-2013 happened, which ended all of that. The loss in Memphis really solidified that the team was dead as constructed with Jefferson and Millsap as the lead. Then the rebuild started.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you're talking about when you say everyone had to go. Either Sap or Al for rebuilding pieces would have been a homerun. If anything, maybe a tweak here or there, but we weren't good enough that we needed to clean house.
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I can understand why Utah did what they did from a business perspective, but from a team-building perspective they dropped the ball, at least for now. IF things still come together in the next few years, then I doubt anyone's going to question what might have been, but if this rebuild turns nasty like it very well could, the lockout season will be the defining moment of when this team could have significantly altered their destiny.
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GVC
Well-Known Member
2 fringe all-stars and 4 cheap, controllable young lottery picks.
Three of those lottery picks who grade out as solid starters (on average) are set to make $38mil combined (roughly), and the other is headed toward restricted free agency. Aside from moving around a bit in the draft and keeping picks (Exum), the only thing DL's added is Hood and a 2017 (likely late) 1st round pick.
I'm not sure Gordo, Favs and Burks are better assets today than they were in the summer of 2012 (in sum, anyway). I'm not convinced Hood + a late 1st round pick is great value for 2 fringe all-stars. Muhammad+Dieng for Burke+Gobert hasn't been settled yet IMO.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Yes, they could have. But they also could have done a nice reboot had Mo been a quality PG and the youngsters progressed a bit faster. Half the board is criticizing DL for NOT keeping Millsap and Carroll. Half the board is saying we should have traded everyone when Deron was shown the door. And half is in support of what DL is doing now. Oh, except half think he isn't tanking ENOUGH!
Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He could draft the next Kobe and have Exum turn into Magic and he'd still get criticized for something.