The Jazz rebuild
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Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
In all seriousness, my biggest complaint about the rebuilding effort is a couple of missteps that would have been huge gets for the Jazz.
I was one of the big fans of Giannis Antetokounmpo in the draft. I wanted them to swing for the fences and he was at the top of my list (followed closely by Schroeder, Adams and Gobert.) I loved his size and athleticism combination and thought he'd fit in perfectly with Hayward/Burks out on the wing.
I'd have also pushed to trade up for K. J. McDaniels. Thought he'd be a great perimeter defender, and so far he has looked great. I think that the tank/rebuilding efforts would look pretty stellar if the Jazz had ended up with Antetokounmpo, Gobert, Neto, Exum, Hood and McDaniels from the past two drafts. As it is, I think Burke is probably not in the team's long term plans and their perimeter defense still sucks. Oh well.
I was one of the big fans of Giannis Antetokounmpo in the draft. I wanted them to swing for the fences and he was at the top of my list (followed closely by Schroeder, Adams and Gobert.) I loved his size and athleticism combination and thought he'd fit in perfectly with Hayward/Burks out on the wing.
I'd have also pushed to trade up for K. J. McDaniels. Thought he'd be a great perimeter defender, and so far he has looked great. I think that the tank/rebuilding efforts would look pretty stellar if the Jazz had ended up with Antetokounmpo, Gobert, Neto, Exum, Hood and McDaniels from the past two drafts. As it is, I think Burke is probably not in the team's long term plans and their perimeter defense still sucks. Oh well.
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freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Without risk/progressive management, the Warriors would still be trying to ride Ellis. Also, I hate to think where this team might be if we hadn't pulled of the D-Will trade, which I also consider to be thinking outside the box.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
According to some, there was absolutely no indication he would have bolted when his contract was up. A lot of these decisions, including draft picks are calculated gambles. As you mentioned, We shudder when thinking about a broken down Deron eating up $20M in cap space. The Millers certainly don't have the ability to pay $90M just in luxury taxes (or whatever insane amount Prokhorov ended up paying).
And I love hindsight. Yes, we should have taken Giannis instead of Burke and then traded up to get Schroder. Should have taken George over Hayward, Valanciunas over Kanter and Leonard over Burks. Crystal ball would have also told DL to offer Hayward the same contract as Favors (or slightly higher) because it mattered 0% what he did last season. Someone was going to offer him the max. Would be great to hit on every decision.
Agree we've missed out on some solid players. But I don't see any busts. Burke is disappointing for sure for a #9 pick. But all those high picks are starters and Favors developed nicely as the centerpiece in the Deron deal. Gobert and Hood look like steals. Yep, I wish we could have drafted a franchise player. There were some that are looking like stars who were drafted after the 3rd pick. So we don't have to necessarily "tank." But DL absolutely has to make the next pick count, hope Exum develops and acquire one more player in free agency.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I prefer vision, and my opinions now are the same as they were before we ever decided to try and scrape into the 8th seed.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
If by some, you mean the completely naïve, I agree.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
For the record, it's not hindsight. I've been "All in" on the youth movement and was really high on Giannis before it became popular. I wanted athletic freaks of nature in 2013 because that's where a guy has a chance to be special. Giannis and Rudy would have been an epic draft that year.
As for K. J. McDaniels, I always advocated buying a late first to grab him as a defensive specialist. I'm still holding out hope that they're one of the teams that makes him an offer this offseason. Philly probably matches, but I'd love to see defensive lineup of Gobert, Favors, Hayward, McDaniels and Exum. That's just nasty.
As for K. J. McDaniels, I always advocated buying a late first to grab him as a defensive specialist. I'm still holding out hope that they're one of the teams that makes him an offer this offseason. Philly probably matches, but I'd love to see defensive lineup of Gobert, Favors, Hayward, McDaniels and Exum. That's just nasty.
So are we holding DL accountable for KOC and that era FO?
I ask this because people talk about things like tanking sooner and not matching Matthews.
Guess what. That was not DL!
As for drafting lets look at DL's drafts (the last two since that's when he took over). Exum, Burke, Gobert and Hood. I am thrilled with three of them and still have a lot of hope for the 4th.
Yes DL's history is short. But in that time he has gone into a proper rebuild, drafted pretty damn good, moved on from a coach that wasn't going to take us where we wanted the Jazz to be, beefed up scouting and gotten ownership on board with his plan.
Was it perfect? No, there are mistakes (sucha s letting Carroll walk) but overall it has been pretty damn good.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Killing it today, Stoked.
Yes, in hindisght Giannis would have been a terrific pick. But NO GM takes him at #9. Burke was slotted by many draft experts to go higher. He fell. PG was a position of DIRE need for Utah so DL traded up and took BPA. I don't blame him one bit for his decision. Rumor was he wanted a big at #14 but knew he'd be gone (whether that was Olynyk or Adams, I'm not sure). But he was also talking about Gobert before the draft. Well, never mentioned his name, only an "international player other teams were sleeping on." But we knew it was Rudy. Year #2 and Gobert is showing signs that he should be starting. And when he does: 12/12/3? An elite rim protector. Gobert impacts games. He's our center of the future. Maybe the best 5 we've ever had.
Hood was a steal. I know he's not been shooting well. But I've seen enough to know he's going to be a rotation player. Better defense than I expected from him and he's got some moves. Once he starts honing in on those threes, he becomes a more athletic Korver.
Yes, in hindisght Giannis would have been a terrific pick. But NO GM takes him at #9. Burke was slotted by many draft experts to go higher. He fell. PG was a position of DIRE need for Utah so DL traded up and took BPA. I don't blame him one bit for his decision. Rumor was he wanted a big at #14 but knew he'd be gone (whether that was Olynyk or Adams, I'm not sure). But he was also talking about Gobert before the draft. Well, never mentioned his name, only an "international player other teams were sleeping on." But we knew it was Rudy. Year #2 and Gobert is showing signs that he should be starting. And when he does: 12/12/3? An elite rim protector. Gobert impacts games. He's our center of the future. Maybe the best 5 we've ever had.
Hood was a steal. I know he's not been shooting well. But I've seen enough to know he's going to be a rotation player. Better defense than I expected from him and he's got some moves. Once he starts honing in on those threes, he becomes a more athletic Korver.
And the best part is that our oldest core player is 24! On a team set up coaching wise to hone and develop their skills.
This road as barely begun and it is a long one. But it is the right one imo. It will take time and their will be ugly loses (Toronto and Dalls), should have wons (Indy), heroics (Cleveland and New York) and complete hard fought games where they deserved the win(Spurs).
But don't get blinded by the out come. Look at the process my friends and Cy. Is what they are practicing sound basketball? Is it practiced enough to become a habit/muscle memory on court? Are they addressing areas of need? In my opinion the answer to all of that is yes.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
But here's the rub. Were we in Houston's position, the Jazz fan base (or certain members of it, including many on this board) would be excoriating Morey because Houston, while a perennial 50+ game winner and very good team, is not a real championship contender, having failed to reach even the WCFs since bringing Harden and Howard on board. They are very similar to the D-Will-Boozer Jazz, a very good team, but not a real contender. (Let's face it, Houston isn't winning the West.) There would be as much complaining about this and calls to blow it up as there is now about being a crappy rebuilding team.
Yes, Millsap and Big Al were good players (Hayward is, in my opinion, better than both of them), but neither of the teams they're on now are going anywhere past the first round of the playoffs (Atlanta, maybe, but that franchise is the very epitome of NBA mediocrity). How many of us would be happy with this outcome?
I've read year after year here the voices urging the Jazz to go Championship or bust--it seemed nobody was happy with perpetual mediocrity--but now that we're in a rebuild, less than one fully committed year into it, people are already jumping off the bandwagon. How many teams completely rebuild in a year or two? Not many.
Personally, I was never a championship or bust fan. I like having competitive, winning and fun to watch teams. I'd be thrilled to be Houston, even if I knew deep down inside I'd never win a title.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I'm with you. I actually enjoy watching basketball. Put a team together that plays an entertaining brand of basketball and competes at a high level consistently, and I'm happy. In a small market, planning for luck in the lottery is a surefire way to field a lot of unbearable teams, and I'm not convinced it actually increases the odds of winning a championship (by very much, anyway).
Hopefully DL and Quin can mold this team into something worth watching.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
Regrets, we've had a few.
Single biggest, in my opinion: Letting Korver walk
Next biggest: Letting Mathews and Carroll walk
But more, much more than this, we did it our way.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
This is where you lose me entirely. Utah is at a huge disadvantage when competing for FAs, so that makes building through trades and through the draft that much more important, IMO. As long as we are a bottom feeder, I don't even have confidence that we can keep our own UFAs, let alone attract others. I don't care much about a championship compared to, say, a 2nd round bump, but Utah needs a difference maker, and the best chance for this team to get one of those is having a high draft pick. Even if you don't like your odds or waiting 3 years for a player to develop, the value of a high pick gives you the option of possibly trading for a difference maker like Cleveland did.
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freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with this at all. I think the majority of fans were pretty happy with the team during the Deron/Booze days. There were complaints, but I never heard anyone suggest blowing it up and starting over. Personally, I don't care about getting bumped in the 1st round, as long as your team is in a position to grow from there. Big difference between that and the team that got abused by the Spurs.
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Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Well, perhaps not blow it up completely. But there were many who pointed out the flaws in the team, said they would never contend and argued for trades, while KOC kept saying, "we don't know what this team can do when healthy."
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
C: Gobert-Cauley-Stein (you want rim protection? we GOTS rim protection!)
PF: Favors-Booker-FA
SF: Carroll-(Hayward)-Ingles
SG: Hayward-Burks-Hood
PG: (Trade or FA)-Exum-Neto
1. Obviously, I'd rather have Towns or Okafor. Not gonna happen; the Jazz aren't bad enough to out-tank Philly, Detroit and New York (amongst others) and don't have the luck of the Cavs.
2. Prefer Wesley Matthews as a free agent. But Portland will tell him before free agency begins to bring back whatever offer he gets and they'll match it. Carroll can be pried away from Atlanta due to his respect for Quin. But he'll have to be promised a starting spot.
3. Hayward and Carroll start, but Burks comes in for DMC at the 6 min mark, with Gordon moving to SF. All three get 30 mins. in essentially a 3-man rotation. Hood gets time when there's foul trouble or injuries.
4. Trade Burke while he still has decent value (rookie contract/team can match offer as a RFA). Need a veteran PG who can hit some shots, split time with Exum and then give way as Dante takes over as the starter in a couple of years.
Very early, of course, and maybe the 6-8 range, where I think the Jazz will pick is too high for WCS. Other bigs could break out like Turner. Or Jazz could take someone like Porzingis and keep Kanter as the backup 5. I just think Gobert HAS to start at some point. Or the Jazz get another wing like Johnson or Hezonja.
EDIT: IN fact, my gut tells me there's a 90% chance Kanter returns. After letting Mo slip away (the first time), KOC and the rest have lived in fear they'll let someone go and he'll turn into a very good player. That was only reinforced by what happened with Carroll. It's why CJ stuck around so long. So unless another team breaks the bank, the Jazz will make the QO to Enes and work out a contract.
PF: Favors-Booker-FA
SF: Carroll-(Hayward)-Ingles
SG: Hayward-Burks-Hood
PG: (Trade or FA)-Exum-Neto
1. Obviously, I'd rather have Towns or Okafor. Not gonna happen; the Jazz aren't bad enough to out-tank Philly, Detroit and New York (amongst others) and don't have the luck of the Cavs.
2. Prefer Wesley Matthews as a free agent. But Portland will tell him before free agency begins to bring back whatever offer he gets and they'll match it. Carroll can be pried away from Atlanta due to his respect for Quin. But he'll have to be promised a starting spot.
3. Hayward and Carroll start, but Burks comes in for DMC at the 6 min mark, with Gordon moving to SF. All three get 30 mins. in essentially a 3-man rotation. Hood gets time when there's foul trouble or injuries.
4. Trade Burke while he still has decent value (rookie contract/team can match offer as a RFA). Need a veteran PG who can hit some shots, split time with Exum and then give way as Dante takes over as the starter in a couple of years.
Very early, of course, and maybe the 6-8 range, where I think the Jazz will pick is too high for WCS. Other bigs could break out like Turner. Or Jazz could take someone like Porzingis and keep Kanter as the backup 5. I just think Gobert HAS to start at some point. Or the Jazz get another wing like Johnson or Hezonja.
EDIT: IN fact, my gut tells me there's a 90% chance Kanter returns. After letting Mo slip away (the first time), KOC and the rest have lived in fear they'll let someone go and he'll turn into a very good player. That was only reinforced by what happened with Carroll. It's why CJ stuck around so long. So unless another team breaks the bank, the Jazz will make the QO to Enes and work out a contract.
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QuinSnydersHair
Well-Known Member
^
Detroit will get better. SVG and Drummond and Co. are too good in the East not to. That and the fact that it comes down to the lottery gives us a decent shot at a top 3 pick and Okafur or Towns imo.
Detroit will get better. SVG and Drummond and Co. are too good in the East not to. That and the fact that it comes down to the lottery gives us a decent shot at a top 3 pick and Okafur or Towns imo.