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BYU @ Florida State Game Thread

Thriller: I'm not one of the Ute fans blasting Heaps, but you brought up a great point in your concern about recruiting. Let's say Heaps leaves after 3 years. That means after Heaps gets his "learning" year out of the way, he basically has 2 years playing QB at BYU. Where are the WR's going to come from in that time? Where are the TE's going to come from?

Look, I don't think I'm being a hater here. I just think it's a pretty honest fact that BYU better hurry and get some talent around this kid if they want to maximize the Jake Heaps experience. Their WR's are simply awful. Is the next Austin Collie waiting in the wings? All of their TE's are freshman and at this point don't show the potential that BYU is used to having at that position.

As much as I think Stern is a boob, his idea that BYU is young and once they mature they will be better is usually a sound idea when talking about BYU, but at this point and time I think he's dead wrong. Using the 2007 TCU team as an example of what BYU is going through right now is simply laughable and is the perfect example of a fan grasping at straws. BYU's current talent pool comes up EXTREMELY short when compared to what TCU was working with in 2007.

Experience is good for any young team, but what good is experience when most of these youngsters are nothing but average (if that)? Who's a young up-and-coming star on BYU's defense? Byu's defense is made up of 2nd and 3rd teamers if they were at Utah or TCU this year. Maybe Jake Heaps is everything that BYU fans say he will be, but I bet his years at BYU are underminded by voids of talent in other areas of the roster.

Honestly you're the one who is grasping at straws. In 2007, TCU played two QBs, started out the season tough, but came back to get to 8-5. That's not exactly a horrible comparison. If you've watched BYU this year, you'll know they actually have some pretty good athletes. The fundamentals are what is killing this young team right now, which is easily correctable. We've got the talent, the experience will come and this team will get better. We've played the 5th best schedule in the Nation so far, so saying this team won't get better as the teams get easier isn't too far fetched.
 
Yes, BYU doesn't have problems with those little running backs. It's the ****ing guys that break tackles and then look like Usain Bolt coming out of the blocks that BYU has trouble with. That guy on Florida State that broke those long runs had ****ing ridiculous speed and power. I think it was actually Andrian Peterson out there for them.

Dion Lewis, Pitt's star running back, is 5' 8", 195 pounds. Chris Thompson, Florida State's leading rusher in that BYU game, is 5' 8" and 186 pounds. Asher Clark, Air Force's leading rusher in that BYU game, is 5' 8" and 185 pounds.

I have every reason to think that Pitt would have ran all over BYU if they had played them instead of Utah. Not only that, but Baldwin would have looked like Randy Moss in his prime.

I'm not one of the guys saying Heaps sucks. I do agree that he is not as good as Wynn or even Cain right now, but I can see that he has some potential and might be pretty good someday. But to say BYU would have beat Pitt, and they match up with them as good as Utah does, well that is just flat out ridiculous. BYU hasn't stopped anyone from running all over them yet. That BYU game was the only game all seaon where Clark (Air Force) ran for more than 84 yards, and the only game Thompson (Florida State) ran for more than 17 yards.

These aren't star running backs lighting up BYU. They haven't faced a star running back yet. So to say they they could have stopped a star running back like Dion Lewis just as well as Utah did, when they have been getting run all over by every scrub running back they face, is ridiculous.

Pitt is not a bad team. They will finish ranked and play in a BCS game, and they would have crushed BYU if they would have played them instead of Utah. Utah was just better than Pitt.

Washington, on the other hand, is a bad team.
 
BYU matches up better with Pitt simply because they don't have a mobile QB. In fact, experienced mobile QBs have been what has killed BYU so far this young season. Since Pitt doesn't have that, thats where my opinion comes from. Florida State is the style of team BYU struggles with, but Pitt is the exact opposite of that scheme.

Stats don't mean everything in football, we know this. Somebody said inexperience is a huge key in college football, and Pitts QB has played two games. Two games really don't mean much, we have no idea how good that QB is. He will not have a great year, as most first year QBs don't. You're definitely making a huge stretch to say he's a great QB after just two games.

And on your point of defense, Utah has a good defense that hasn't really been tested, so saying they are one of the best defenses in the nation is also a stretch.

1: Pitt may not have a mobile QB, but they have a Heisman candidate at running back- much better than any running back BYU has faced yet this year.
2: Pitt's QB may have only played 2 games, but BYU's QB has only played 3 games after that Florida State game. And Pitt's QB has put up way better numbers in those 2 games than BYU's. Not sure how you can say experience is a factor when they have more experience than BYU at every position except QB, and they are tied at QB experience.
3: Pitt has an NFL first rounder at receiver. If you think BYU's horrible secondary could handle him, you're crazy.
4: Utah's defense has been tested. Not only are a lot of them returning from last year (and before) but they played Pitt and held their NFL prospects in check. Baldwin and Lewis will both be playing in the NFL, and neither of them went off against Utah.

You're not making a lot of sense here. The bottom line is you said Pitt was a "BAD" team, and BYU would match up with them just as well as Utah did. But the fact is BYU has been killed by way worse running backs, and hasn't seen an NFL caliber receiver (like Pitt's Baldwin) yet. All evidence points to Pitt destroying BYU. And they are in the top 30 in both polls after 3 weeks, so they are obviously not a "BAD" team.
 
Look Sterno, I can appreciate that you are devoted enough to go to the wall for your team. But frankly, I think you are getting yourself more worked up than the Utah fans you hate so much. Who are these guys you claim are predicting Utah to go 12-0? I don't remember seeing that in this forum, even from Salty. I've seen a lot of cautious optimism, but you still have yet to explain what "delusions" you are talking about.

While I've got my soapbox out, let me tell you my feelings on Jake Heaps (although I'm sure you think you already know - you know ute fans so well...)

JH is a talented kid. He's got a hell of an arm. On paper, he should be the perfect fit for BYU's offense. And really, if he can be developed, with the right pieces around him, he can be a stellar college QB. But that's a big IF. As jazzman12 has pointed out, those pieces don't appear to be there. Perhaps they will be, at some point. But that's a lot of work still yet to do.

Personally, I'd like to see them get it done. I'd love to see how JH measures up to the hype. I'd love to see him get a proper shot. But as it is, he's not getting the opportunity that he and his PR rep signed up for.
 
Thriller: I'm not one of the Ute fans blasting Heaps, but you brought up a great point in your concern about recruiting. Let's say Heaps leaves after 3 years. That means after Heaps gets his "learning" year out of the way, he basically has 2 years playing QB at BYU. Where are the WR's going to come from in that time? Where are the TE's going to come from?

Look, I don't think I'm being a hater here. I just think it's a pretty honest fact that BYU better hurry and get some talent around this kid if they want to maximize the Jake Heaps experience. Their WR's are simply awful. Is the next Austin Collie waiting in the wings? All of their TE's are freshman and at this point don't show the potential that BYU is used to having at that position.

As much as I think Stern is a boob, his idea that BYU is young and once they mature they will be better is usually a sound idea when talking about BYU, but at this point and time I think he's dead wrong. Using the 2007 TCU team as an example of what BYU is going through right now is simply laughable and is the perfect example of a fan grasping at straws. BYU's current talent pool comes up EXTREMELY short when compared to what TCU was working with in 2007.

Experience is good for any young team, but what good is experience when most of these youngsters are nothing but average (if that)? Who's a young up-and-coming star on BYU's defense? Byu's defense is made up of 2nd and 3rd teamers if they were at Utah or TCU this year. Maybe Jake Heaps is everything that BYU fans say he will be, but I bet his years at BYU are underminded by voids of talent in other areas of the roster.

My comment was more directed towards someone who smashed Heaps yesterday... You've been actually pretty rational in this thread... I've enjoyed reading your posts and it's nice to actually have a discussion here. But there was someone a page or two ago that just smashed Heaps.

Getting basically his first real playing time in Florida St. with the offensive line doing nothing, receivers struggling, and virtually no proven RB is a tough. Put Jordan Wynn in and he looks pretty crappy too.... Put Max Hall or Brian Johnson in yesterday's game and I guarantee you see similar results as Heaps.

I think you nailed it, BYU's recruiting MUST improve significantly.

A rude awakening is in order.

Personally, I think they've become complacent. And honestly, I'm not sure if Bronco is the right guy for the job. I'm not sure who is... But excluding the BYU zoobies out there who dumbasses were praising the two QB system a few weeks ago, us rational fans are worried. BYU is going independent and yet their Football program is at best, leveled out and at worse, on a decline. Not good.

I think BYU may have just leveled out, much like what Utah had done under Ronnie Mac.

IMO BYU needs to:

A. Upgrade their schemes on both sides of the ball. their offense is wayyyyyyyy too conservative. Even Utah runs a more exciting offense now. They should study up on Boise St. Texas Tech, Northwestern, and Oregon to see how a real offense is run.

Hemie Hill just plain sucks. If you get beat deep you get beat deep, but at least send'em. There's a reason why BYU's Jan Jorgensen led the MWC in sacks his freshmen year (or sophmore?), and then never came close to doing so afterwords. Their scheme defensively in hopes of keeping everything "in front" of them actually works against them since good offenses know exactly what they're going to do. AF isn't dumb. They knew where BYU was going to be and blocked them effectively. When Utah plays them, watch how many different looks they give. AF will be so unbalanced and will not know what the hell to block.

B. Recruit speed and keep the guys from chunking up. From multiple sources I've heard how they like the "big boys." This goes completely against the trend of speed. Just look @ Utah's offensive line. There's not one fatty there. literally, they look like big linebackers and fullbacks. BYU's offensive line would scare away Sumo wrestlers. T. Brown is a complete embarrassment. He can't stay with even his run blocks because he's too fat. Matt Reynolds is a poor left tackle who can be beaten easily by speed rushes. Christian Cox is going to eat him alive.

Harvey Unga, IMO, was a better RB as a freshmen than as a soph or junior. He just got too big which took away his effectiveness, especially as a receiving RB. Even McCay Jacobsen is too thick right now. He looks like he should be a fullback not a wide out. Again, this is deep stuff that BYU needs to drastically change. It's a long time coming and I think it's finally starting to show. This team is going to lose 5-6 games this year. Why will next year be any better?

C. Step up when it counts. One thing that you have to admire about teams like TCU, Boise, and Utah is that they've stepped up when it counts. this falls directly on Bronco. He admitted this past week that last year against FSU he hadn't prepared them enough. What? I would love to ask Bronco how the hell you forget to prepare your team when you're going up against one of the most storied teams in NCAA history, against one of the best coaches of ALL TIME, on national TV, with ESPN gameday at your doorstep?

I really can't stand it when coaches say that they weren't "prepared." It's like when Jazz players say that "the other team" just "wanted" it more. Come again? How the hell does that happen?

BYU has only stepped up once, and that was against a lame OU team playing without their starting QB. Bronco had them prepared and amped up, which was nice to see. But I'll admit that if Bradford plays, they win. He was just getting heated up when he screwed up his shoulder.

Boise pulled a W out of their butt this year when all seemed lost. Utah has consistently beaten teams when all the pressure was on them. Same with TCU.

It needs to become a habit that BYU beats up on these highly touted teams like FSU, Boston College, etc. Yet, unfortunately, when they have their chance to shine, they have consistently pulled a no show. They haven't lost, but have been EMBARRASSED. In fact, they're the opposite of Boise, Utah, and TCU. They fold far too easily when expectations are made.

This is a recipe for disaster if they ever hope to convince the Big 12 to invite them. No one expects BYU to stay independent. Even Notre Dame will eventually fold and find a conference.

Personally, if I was the Big 12, I'd tell BYU to screw themselves until they get themselves a program capable of competing against the big boys. that they don't need any more teams like Colorado (which they got rid of), and invite TCU.
 
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1: Pitt may not have a mobile QB, but they have a Heisman candidate at running back- much better than any running back BYU has faced yet this year.
2: Pitt's QB may have only played 2 games, but BYU's QB has only played 3 games after that Florida State game. And Pitt's QB has put up way better numbers in those 2 games than BYU's. Not sure how you can say experience is a factor when they have more experience than BYU at every position except QB, and they are tied at QB experience.
3: Pitt has an NFL first rounder at receiver. If you think BYU's horrible secondary could handle him, you're crazy.
4: Utah's defense has been tested. Not only are a lot of them returning from last year (and before) but they played Pitt and held their NFL prospects in check. Baldwin and Lewis will both be playing in the NFL, and neither of them went off against Utah.

You're not making a lot of sense here. The bottom line is you said Pitt was a "BAD" team, and BYU would match up with them just as well as Utah did. But the fact is BYU has been killed by way worse running backs, and hasn't seen an NFL caliber receiver (like Pitt's Baldwin) yet. All evidence points to Pitt destroying BYU. And they are in the top 30 in both polls after 3 weeks, so they are obviously not a "BAD" team.

I'm really not sold on Pitt.

But it's mostly because I think that there's about 3 MWC teams and one WAC team that could win the Big East right now.
 
Why would the Big 12 invite TCU when they already have four teams from Texas in their conference?

that's definitely the mark against them. I'm not sure if TCU brings enough revenue to warrant a BIG 12 invitation. But when all this talk was going down about conferences I remember hearing how some people thought that the BIG 12 might want to make it an all Texas Conference basically. It gives them more power to tell those outside of the state where to go....
 
Personally, I think the Utah St. game is a dangerous game for BYU. Borrel is BYU's worst nightmare. An extremely mobile QB that can throw. If he gets any help from his receivers things could become real interesting.

I actually would want to see a 1-4 start to the season. I think Bronco and co need to wake up and feel some pressure from both the media and boosters. People have been too comfortable with the typical 2-3 loss season, not good enough to keep from being embarrassed by good teams, but good enough to beat the terrible MWC jokes, and calling it a day.
 
I'm really not sold on Pitt.

But it's mostly because I think that there's about 3 MWC teams and one WAC team that could win the Big East right now.
I agree that there are 3 MWC teams that could win the Big East, and 1 WAC team that could. Heck, I think it's possible 2 WAC teams could win it (Nevada). I just don't think BYU is one of those teams that could win it, but I think Utah is.
 
Why would the Big 12 invite TCU when they already have four teams from Texas in their conference?

Why wouldn't they? Obviously, if they cared about having too many teams from Texas in the conference, then they wouldn't have 4 teams from Texas right now.

TCU has a lot of history with a lot of those Big 12 schools, and a lot of fans in the Big 12 footprint. I'm sure they probably also have some pull with the Texas legislature and could have some pressure put on Texas to include them (just like Texas Tech).

I would be a lot more surprised if the Big 12 expanded without TCU than if they expanded with TCU. Wasn't TCU supposed to be in the original Big 12 anyway but some last second issue kept them out?
 
Why would the Big 12 invite TCU when they already have four teams from Texas in their conference?

Why wouldn't they? Obviously, if they cared about having too many teams from Texas in the conference, then they wouldn't have 4 teams from Texas right now.

TCU has a lot of history with a lot of those Big 12 schools, and a lot of fans in the Big 12 footprint. I'm sure they probably also have some pull with the Texas legislature and could have some pressure put on Texas to include them (just like Texas Tech).

I would be a lot more surprised if the Big 12 expanded without TCU than if they expanded with TCU. Wasn't TCU supposed to be in the original Big 12 anyway but some last second issue kept them out?

I'll address this for just a second:
I don't think The Big 12 would invite TCU for a couple reasons.
1. TCU doesn't get a lot of fans to their games. They usually don't come close to selling out at home, and they travel even worse than that. That's part of the reason they've never played in the Vegas Bowl. They buy out of it so they'll get more fans to a bowl game closer to home. I have a friend who went to the BYU/TCU game last time it was there. He said the stadium wasn't close to full and there were almost as many BYU fans as TCU fans. That doesn't sound like a team on the verge of a Big 12 invitation to me.
2. The Big 12 would want to expand into new TV markets. Adding TCU doesn't really do that. They already have a lock on Texas, why add another team from the same area? That's one of the reasons the PAC looked to expand to new areas, to add TV markets and revenue. Don't kid yourselves if you think this doesn't play a MAJOR role in any decisions.
3. Recruiting will also play a huge factor into it as well. Why add another Texas team to recruiting pot? As it stands right now, the Big 12 Texas schools can go into a house and tell a kid not to go to TCU because they don't have that built in BCS affiliation. Letting TCU into the Big 12 would take that away.
 
I'll address this for just a second:
I don't think The Big 12 would invite TCU for a couple reasons.
1. TCU doesn't get a lot of fans to their games. They usually don't come close to selling out at home, and they travel even worse than that. That's part of the reason they've never played in the Vegas Bowl. They buy out of it so they'll get more fans to a bowl game closer to home. I have a friend who went to the BYU/TCU game last time it was there. He said the stadium wasn't close to full and there were almost as many BYU fans as TCU fans. That doesn't sound like a team on the verge of a Big 12 invitation to me.
2. The Big 12 would want to expand into new TV markets. Adding TCU doesn't really do that. They already have a lock on Texas, why add another team from the same area? That's one of the reasons the PAC looked to expand to new areas, to add TV markets and revenue. Don't kid yourselves if you think this doesn't play a MAJOR role in any decisions.
3. Recruiting will also play a huge factor into it as well. Why add another Texas team to recruiting pot? As it stands right now, the Big 12 Texas schools can go into a house and tell a kid not to go to TCU because they don't have that built in BCS affiliation. Letting TCU into the Big 12 would take that away.
1: TCU is in the midst of a 175 million dollar stadium renovation/expansion. They have been playing in one of the oldest and crappiest stadiums in the nation. That is about to change, in a major way. If you think they are spending 175 million on a stadium renovation, and they aren't planning on filling it up, then you're crazy. Also, they travel extremely well within the Big 12 footprint. They may not travel well to Vegas, but Oklahoma's current 8th largest home crowd in their history was when they played TCU a couple years ago.
2: I understand about the new tv markets. That did not stop Oklahoma State from going with Oklahoma, and it didn't stop Texas A&M and Texas Tech from going with Texas. And rumor has it the Texas Legislature was going to force Baylor to go too.

Considering all of that, and looking at TCU as a school that has a lot of history with all of these schools, having been in a conference with them before the Big 12, and as a school that was slated to be in the Big 12 when it was formed until a last second issue kept them out, I just don't see the Big 12 expanding without TCU. The Texas legislature would probably never allow that to happen, but even aside from that TCU is the logical choice. The only argument I am seeing against TCU is that they are too much of a great fit geographically and conferences want to bring in bad geographic fits for tv reasons.

I don't think the Big 12 is too worried about their tv contract. They're set in that area (already getting paid for 12 teams when they only have 10). So if they expand it will be so they can get a championship game and get better respect from the BCS. TCU absolutely fits the bill in that regard. And the travel would be cheap for all sports, plus they have a bunch of fans in the area. This is a no brainer.
 
Who was it that said Wynn sucked last year? In his first start as a true freshman he had 300 yards passing and 2 touchdowns.
 
3. Recruiting will also play a huge factor into it as well. Why add another Texas team to recruiting pot? As it stands right now, the Big 12 Texas schools can go into a house and tell a kid not to go to TCU because they don't have that built in BCS affiliation. Letting TCU into the Big 12 would take that away.

I don't think that's that big of a factor seeing how many great not good players come out of the state of Texas. I think TCU is more a victim in losing in state kids to out of state teams.
 
Florida State alum here. Completely missed the game. Not sure if they were not showing it here or what. Obviously the Noles played quite well in this one. Nice to have a real coach again.
 
Florida State alum here. Completely missed the game. Not sure if they were not showing it here or what. Obviously the Noles played quite well in this one. Nice to have a real coach again.

It wasn't really Florida State playing quite well; it was BYU's complete lack of fundamentals that lost them the game. Florida State was impressive though.
 
And Salty, Pitt has not looked like a good team so far this season. The difference between Pitt versus Florida State and Air Force is that their quarterback is actually a threat to win them the game. When Utah played Pitt, they tried to make the QB beat them and they won because of that. Its a lot harder to defend a team with a good, experienced quarterback who can make a lot of plays.

And I'd love to know what Utah's defense has shown to make them one of the best in the country still. Didn't TCU score 54 on them last year? BYU scored 26? Oregon scored 35? That isn't exactly elite. Those are really good offenses, but they were all shut down at a point last year by what you would call an "elite" defense.
 
Thriller, when I read your posts I find myself torn. If more BYU fans had your IQ, I'd enjoy interacting with them much more than I do now. However, if I found myself happily interacting with BYU fans, what kind of rivalry is that?!

Either way, you're making some good points. Good luck selling them to the rest of your fellow Cougar fans in here. That would be like convincing Salty that Utah won't win the Pac 10 every year (easy Salty, I'm just teasin).
 
And Salty, Pitt has not looked like a good team so far this season. The difference between Pitt versus Florida State and Air Force is that their quarterback is actually a threat to win them the game. When Utah played Pitt, they tried to make the QB beat them and they won because of that. Its a lot harder to defend a team with a good, experienced quarterback who can make a lot of plays.

And I'd love to know what Utah's defense has shown to make them one of the best in the country still. Didn't TCU score 54 on them last year? BYU scored 26? Oregon scored 35? That isn't exactly elite. Those are really good offenses, but they were all shut down at a point last year by what you would call an "elite" defense.
Boy talk about a delusional BYU homer, lol.

First off, exactly where has Pitt looked "bad" this season? Where the heck are you getting that from? They have played 2 games so far: the one against Utah, and the next week when they put up 38 points and 445 yards in a blowout win. Where are you getting that they have looked bad?

Incidentally, Pitt's QB threw for 275 yards with a 71% completion rate the week after the Utah game. And Baldwin, their NFL first rounder at receiver, had 100 yards receiving.

They can absolutely make passing plays when they want (again, they have an NFL first rounder at receiver). And I have no doubt in my mind that their big (6' 5" and 230 pounds) NFL caliber receiver would have absolutely destroyed BYU's crappy secondary, and their NFL caliber running back would have ran all over BYU like everyone else has. You have to be a totally delusional BYU homer if you think BYU matches up as well with them as Utah did. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever to suggest BYU could have even held their own against those guys, let alone actually beat them.

Pitt is in the top 30 in both polls, after 3 weeks. If they looked as bad as you claim, surely at least one of the polls would have given up on them by now.
 
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