ENES KANTER: The third and last game of the preparation tourney will start in half an hour

[Deleted member 848]

Oh, so easy to refute.

Rodman's job was to be Jordan's thug--get in the game, push people around, annoy them, and score only garbage points. By contrast, the discussion of Jefferson and Millsap presumes that most people are looking for these players to be good all-around players0--scorers and defenders alike. Their salaries support that notion.

When did I say Rodman's the better player?? In fact, the only point I'm making is that there have been many successful short Power Forwards in the NBA, the two listed much shorter than Paul Millsap. You never addressed my original inquiry, you simply just summarized what I said and went into a completely different direction.

LOL; Rodman was among the best defensive forwards.

That's like saying that Bruce Bowen was among the best defensive wings.

Or maybe that Jefferson is currently one of the best offensive centers.

In each case, it implies a player who might be valuable in a subsidiary role but not a cornerstone.

That's why the question of whether Jefferson can (and will) play defense regularly is a relevant one; it's arguably the difference between whether he's a rich-man's role player or a franchise player (i.e., top 1, 2 or maybe 3 in importance).

Wait, so youre saying Rodman wasn't a good defender...?? The point I am making (that you mustve clearly missed) is that you dont need to be tall to be a good defender, or even a successful NBA player for that matter. Barkleys in the hall of fame, Rodman will be despite the "shortcomings" they had. All im saying is that height as never an issue as long is it can eb worked around, and thankfully Millsap has the ethic to work around it that not many other players have. Not once did I compare Millsap to the two above mentioned players. Nor did I refer to them as cornerstones and Millsap as a bench scrub. I think he can acclaim to either of their careers if hard work is put in, he improves every year (offensively) it is just time to improve on the other end whether its through speed or fundamentals. Millsap isnt "too-short" to be a valuable member of the staring core of a Finals-contending team.

 

[InGameStrategy]

When did I say Rodman's the better player?? In fact, the only point I'm making is that there have been many successful short Power Forwards in the NBA, the two listed much shorter than Paul Millsap. You never addressed my original inquiry, you simply just summarized what I said and went into a completely different direction.

When did I say that Rodman's the better player?

Do I really have to explain the inconsistency here?

Didn't I already?

Let me make it simpler: Dennis Rodman was a 4th or 5th option on a Jordan dominated team;
Millsap has been--at times--the most important player on the team, and is currently #3 most important at worst [corrected from "at best"].

Rodman was a tremendous rebounder, but he averaged less than 10 points per game (and per 36).

Rodman had one year making $9 million, but he otherwise made less then $5 million per.

Wait, so youre saying Rodman wasn't a good defender...??

Where do you get that interpretation?

The point I am making (that you mustve clearly missed) is that you dont need to be tall to be a good defender, or even a successful NBA player for that matter.

No you don't need to be tall to be a "good defender," or a "successful NBA player." But to this point, Utah has benefitted from Millsap being more than merely a "successful NBA player." It could be argured that he was among the top two important player on the team last season (especially after DW left).

Barkleys in the hall of fame,

Without a ring. In an era where athleticism wasn't as important as it is now--and where a 6'5" power forward simply isn't effective anymore.

Rodman will be despite the "shortcomings" they had. All im saying is that height as never an issue as long is it can eb worked around, and thankfully Millsap has the ethic to work around it that not many other players have. Not once did I compare Millsap to the two above mentioned players. Nor did I refer to them as cornerstones and Millsap as a bench scrub. I think he can acclaim to either of their careers if hard work is put in, he improves every year (offensively) it is just time to improve on the other end whether its through speed or fundamentals. Millsap isnt "too-short" to be a valuable member of the staring core of a Finals-contending team.

The key difference remains: until the Jazz obtain a better cornerstone than Millsap, he's gonna be a top 3 or top 2 most important player on this team. Rodman was never a top 2 most important player on the Bulls. Therein lies the difference. And arguing that just because Rodman and Barkley could be convincing power forwards--more than a decade ago--doesn't suggest that Millsap can be now. As much as I'm a fan of Millsap, he is getting pwned (or neutralized, at best) by taller bigs too often.

 

[northeast]

What's with all the ranking? The team needs to play together, not be divided.

 

[Deleted member 848]

When did I say that Rodman's the better player?

Do I really have to explain the inconsistency here?

Didn't I already?

Let me make it simpler: Dennis Rodman was a 4th or 5th option on a Jordan dominated team;
Millsap has been--at times--the most important player on the team, and is currently #3 most important at best.

Rodman was a tremendous rebounder, but he averaged less than 10 points per game (and per 36).

Rodman had one year making $9 million, but he otherwise made less then $5 million per.

I still dont understand why youre trying to prove to me that Paul Millsap is overall a better player in a team-perspective; my POINT is that height is the last thing people should be worried of when people criticize Sap. I have no ****ing idea why youre throwing these figures at me, I used Rodman as an example of a great defending PF, because people seem to think that if youre short you simply cannot guard todays power forwards, even though the 90s ones were arguably more difficult to defend. Also if youre so set on making comparisons for whatever reason, you nicely refuse to bring Barkley into these discussions, since clearly hes even shorter than Rodman and Millsap yet hes better than the both combined.

No you don't need to be tall to be a "good defender," or a "successful NBA player." But to this point, Utah has benefitted from Millsap being more than merely a "successful NBA player." It could be argured that he was among the top two important player on the team last season (especially after DW left).

Not sure why youre typing this to refute me, when I have said just this exactly. I dont know why you think I think Millsap sucks, again I think he has potential to still become a phenomenal NBA player.

Without a ring. In an era where athleticism wasn't as important as it is now--and where a 6'5" power forward simply isn't effective anymore.

Stockton and Malone both dont have rings; should we exclude the both of them when it comes to their respective all-time PG/PF debates? Barkley versed Jordan as well. And quite frankly I think it is very disputable whther its easier or more difficult for a g'5" PF to defend then, than now, seeing as PFs got away with a lout more fouling, and could much more easily push around short/smaller players than they can nowadays. Very debatable.

The key difference remains: until the Jazz obtain a better cornerstone than Millsap, he's gonna be a top 3 or top 2 most important player on this team. Rodman was never a top 2 most important player on the Bulls. Therein lies the difference. And arguing that just because Rodman and Barkley could be convincing power forwards--more than a decade ago--doesn't suggest that Millsap can be now. As much as I'm a fan of Millsap, he is getting pwned by taller bigs too often.

first sentence I agree with, never refuted it once in this discussion despite what you seem to think. I was talking in terms of defense, which is obviously what Millsaps number one shortcoming was. I think itd be quite stupid of you if you claimed that Rodman wasnt the top 3 most improtant defensive player of the bulls. And hence your difference is marginalized, since the only reason I brought Millsap into this discussion was his shrotcoming on the defensive end, and I brought forth two examples of past power forwards, one of which who was better offensively, and one of which who was better defensively. Last sentence makes sense as well, but again we should not blame it on his height, and simply dismiss him as a player who will never be able to defend well.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

I love these debates where the participants get so hot and bothered that they can't even seem to remember what point they were trying to make.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I still dont understand why youre trying to prove to me that Paul Millsap is overall a better player in a team-perspective; my POINT is that height is the last thing people should be worried of when people criticize Sap.

What should be the first thing (not that we're looking for things to criticize), then?

To Millsap's credit, he has improved almost every part of his NBA game--rebounding (still had to develop it although he was a top rebounder in college), shooting, defense, stamina. But you can't teach height, and you can't develop height much, either. So his height is where his ceiling (pardon the pun) lies. He has had his times where he has flustered Kevin Garnett, but he'd have to be near flawless in every other part of his game to hold his own against a Gasol (either brother) or a Bosh or maybe even an aging Duncan. Boozer couldn't--not against Pau and Duncan, at least--and Jefferson or maybe Kanter might be able to, if the former wakes up one day and decides to play defense.

I have no ****ing idea why youre throwing these figures at me, I used Rodman as an example of a great defending PF, because people seem to think that if youre short you simply cannot guard todays power forwards, even though the 90s ones were arguably more difficult to defend. Also if youre so set on making comparisons for whatever reason, you nicely refuse to bring Barkley into these discussions, since clearly hes even shorter than Rodman and Millsap yet hes better than the both combined.

Your comparison is apples to oranges--or at least golden delicious apples to Johnathans. On a Jordan-manned team, Rodman was not a cornerstone; he was a garbage man offensively. Meanwhile, the Jazz need more from the PF position than somebody who merely cleans up the boards for putbacks. That's why Millsap vs. Rodman is a tenuous comparison as long as the Jazz need more from the PF spot (including Millsap).

While Barkley's current midsection is far from fading, a comparison of Millsap to the Barkley of the 90's is a fading comparison because the NBA players are more athletic these days. (I don't know if average height has gone up or down, but Millsap represents approximately the average height for all of the NBA.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball#Height

That data point--along with a mixed success against taller bigs--points to the notion that Millsap is a valuable, fun-to-watch player who might not be able to compensate for his one big weakness (i.e., small weakness): stature.

The first sentence I agree with, never refuted it once in this discussion despite what you seem to think. I was talking in terms of defense, which is obviously what Millsaps number one shortcoming was. I think itd be quite stupid of you if you claimed that Rodman wasnt the top 3 most improtant defensive player of the bulls. And hence your difference is marginalized, since the only reason I brought Millsap into this discussion was his shrotcoming on the defensive end, and I brought forth two examples of past power forwards, one of which who was better offensively, and one of which who was better defensively. Last sentence makes sense as well, but again we should not blame it on his height, and simply dismiss him as a player who will never be able to defend well.

Did I say that Millsap's shortcoming was primarily on defense? Against taller bigs, his height hurts him offensively also. You're the one focusing on defense. But anyone who has defense as his shortcoming has a rather large shortcoming. Even Big Al's key shortcoming is not defense as a whole.

 

[Deleted member 848]

What should be the first thing (not that we're looking for things to criticize), then?

Biggest worry of mine is whether he'll accept his height deficiency and find ways to work around it, instead of just accepting and and deciding to remain as a potent 6th man or a serviceable starter for the rest of his career. My first concern for Millsap is whether he has the mentality to raise his "ceiling" that people have seemed to put on him throughout his career, something he continuously does. To me this is his hardest challenge yet, however if theres anyone in the NBA who has proven fans/critics wrong SEVERAL times over it is Paul Millsap. I am not worried for his physical gifts, reach height etc. I am most worried about how he approaches improvement mentally, whether he decides to just give up or whether he'll keep trying to improve.

To Millsap's credit, he has improved almost every part of his NBA game--rebounding (still had to develop it although he was a top rebounder in college), shooting, defense, stamina. But you can't teach height, and you can't develop height much, either. So his height is where his ceiling (pardon the pun) lies. He has had his times where he has flustered Kevin Garnett, but he'd have to be near flawless in every other part of his game to hold his own against a Gasol (either brother) or a Bosh or maybe even an aging Duncan. Boozer couldn't--not against Pau and Duncan, at least--and Jefferson or maybe Kanter might be able to, if the former wakes up one day and decides to play defense.

This is where I vehemently disagree, as a player SHORTER than Paul Millsap DENNIS RODMAN could defend people much taller than him. This is the precise reason i introduced him into the argument, I I cannot understand how you continuously shoo off the fact that there have been defensive Aces at PF that were much shorter than Paul Millsap. Defense isn't about whos taller, whos stronger, etc. If you had any sort of Basketball knowledge coupled with critical thinking skills you would realize this.

Your comparison is apples to oranges--or at least golden delicious apples to Johnathans. On a Jordan-manned team, Rodman was not a cornerstone; he was a garbage man offensively. Meanwhile, the Jazz need more from the PF position than somebody who merely cleans up the boards for putbacks. That's why Millsap vs. Rodman is a tenuous comparison as long as the Jazz need more from the PF spot (including Millsap).

Not once did I wish for Millsap to be like Dennis Rodman like player, nor did I state the Jazzes need for a player like him at all. For the 80th time the only reason I brought Rodman up is to prove that short players can defend in the NBA, something people use as Millsaps number one weakness.

While Barkley's current midsection is far from fading, a comparison of Millsap to the Barkley of the 90's is a fading comparison because the NBA players are more athletic these days. (I don't know if average height has gone up or down, but Millsap represents approximately the average height for all of the NBA.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basketball#Height

Never said its an easy comparison, but you are either trying extremely hard to win a pointless internet debate or youre just blind, if you seriously think that Paul Millsap either as just as good as Charles Barkley, or would have Barkley-esque career in the Nineties.

Did I say that Millsap's shortcoming was primarily on defense? Against taller bigs, his height hurts him offensively also. You're the one focusing on defense. But anyone who has defense as his shortcoming has a rather large shortcoming. Even Big Al's key shortcoming is not defense as a whole.

So lets see: he had one of the top FG% among PFs in the league, one of the highest true shooting percentages in the league among PFFs, and averaged 17 ppg in his first starting season of his career. His offense is absolutely anything but alarming, or a shortcoming as of this point, and he matched up regularly against much taller players throughout his 70+ game season. His defense is easily his largest weakness, however the point I'm making is that he isnt physically limited to being a poor defender for the rest of his life, and it is up to his work ethic to probably become quite the solid defender for the rest of his career, given that one of the best defending/rebounding PFs of alltime was a lot shorter than him.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Biggest worry of mine is whether he'll accept his height deficiency and find ways to work around it, instead of just accepting and and deciding to remain as a potent 6th man or a serviceable starter for the rest of his career. My first concern for Millsap is whether he has the mentality to raise his "ceiling" that people have seemed to put on him throughout his career, something he continuously does. To me this is his hardest challenge yet, however if theres anyone in the NBA who has proven fans/critics wrong SEVERAL times over it is Paul Millsap. I am not worried for his physical gifts, reach height etc. I am most worried about how he approaches improvement mentally, whether he decides to just give up or whether he'll keep trying to improve.

As my posts have suggested, I tend to think that his upside is limited by his height more than his motivation or mental state. As you astutely pointed out, Mansap--largely has exceeded normal expectations of someone who is an undersized PF (not to mention 2nd-round draftee).

When Millsap replaced Boozer in the starting lineup for ~20 games in the 2008-09 season, I thought that it was his fatigu e (and relative in experience) that caused him to wear down. (The Desperate News writethought it was both.)

This is where I vehemently disagree, as a player SHORTER than Paul Millsap DENNIS RODMAN could defend people much taller than him. This is the precise reason i introduced him into the argument, I I cannot understand how you continuously shoo off the fact that there have been defensive Aces at PF that were much shorter than Paul Millsap. Defense isn't about whos taller, whos stronger, etc. If you had any sort of Basketball knowledge coupled with critical thinking skills you would realize this.

I have plenty of both, thank you. The problem is that you continue to compare apples (the current, more athletic NBA bigs) with oranges (Dennis Rodman, 10 to 15 years ago, when players were shorter, fouls were called less closely, and where Michael Jordan's health & mind-set was far more important than whether the starting power forward was undersized or not).

Not once did I wish for Millsap to be like Dennis Rodman like player, nor did I state the Jazzes need for a player like him at all. For the 80th time the only reason I brought Rodman up is to prove that short players can defend in the NBA, something people use as Millsaps number one weakness.

Short players used to be able to defend in the NBA. Millsap can defend against a majority of opposing bigs. But he hasn't proven to be able to do so when it counts.

Never said its an easy comparison, but you are either trying extremely hard to win a pointless internet debate or youre just blind, if you seriously think that Paul Millsap either as just as good as Charles Barkley, or would have Barkley-esque career in the Nineties.

I think that a 6'6" Millsap could have held his own with a 6'5" (at best) Charles Barkley.

So lets see: he had one of the top FG% among PFs in the league, one of the highest true shooting percentages in the league among PFFs, and averaged 17 ppg in his first starting season of his career. His offense is absolutely anything but alarming, or a shortcoming as of this point, and he matched up regularly against much taller players throughout his 70+ game season. His defense is easily his largest weakness, however the point I'm making is that he isnt physically limited to being a poor defender for the rest of his life, and it is up to his work ethic to probably become quite the solid defender for the rest of his career, given that one of the best defending/rebounding PFs of alltime was a lot shorter than him.

He can continue to develop his defense and offense to an maximum level, but it is likely that there are a few average sized bigs (i.e., 6'10" or above) who will also optimize their skills and be to tall for Mansap to handle. If he somehow overcomes that height disadvantage too, more power to him. He's already able to do it against some of the average-sized bigs in the league.

 

[Deleted member 848]

As my posts have suggested, I tend to think that his upside is limited by his height more than his motivation or mental state. As you astutely pointed out, Mansap--largely has exceeded normal expectations of someone who is an undersized PF (not to mention 2nd-round draftee).

When Millsap replaced Boozer in the starting lineup for ~20 games in the 2008-09 season, I thought that it was his fatigu e (and relative in experience) that caused him to wear down. (The Desperate News writethought it was both.)

I have plenty of both, thank you. The problem is that you continue to compare apples (the current, more athletic NBA bigs) with oranges (Dennis Rodman, 10 to 15 years ago, when players were shorter, fouls were called less closely, and where Michael Jordan's health & mind-set was far more important than whether the starting power forward was undersized or not).


Short players used to be able to defend in the NBA. Millsap can defend against a majority of opposing bigs. But he hasn't proven to be able to do so when it counts.

I think that a 6'6" Millsap could have held his own with a 6'5" (at best) Charles Barkley.

He can continue to develop his defense and offense to an maximum level, but it is likely that there are a few average sized bigs (i.e., 6'10" or above) who will also optimize their skills and be to tall for Mansap to handle. If he somehow overcomes that height disadvantage too, more power to him. He's already able to do it against some of the average-sized bigs in the league.

Hahahaha short players USED to be able to defend in the NBA, not anymore?? Heres a question for ya big guy: Which player of this decade was awarded the NBA Defensive Player of the Year award a record-tieing FOUR times?? Ill give you a hint, he played the center position even though he was only 6'7"(roughly Saps height, interestingly enough). And I never asked you whether Millsap "could hold his own" against Barkley, were talking about who's better and the answer is obvious despite the different eras.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Hahahaha short players USED to be able to defend in the NBA, not anymore?? Heres a question for ya big guy: Which player of this decade was awarded the NBA Defensive Player of the Year award a record-tieing FOUR times?? Ill give you a hint, he played the center position even though he was only 6'7"(roughly Saps height, interestingly enough). And I never asked you whether Millsap "could hold his own" against Barkley, were talking about who's better and the answer is obvious despite the different eras.

Ben Wallace was not 6'7" you moran.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Ben Wallace was not 6'7" you moran.

Thats what his draft emasurements were; plus, he himself has stated several times that he is, in fact, 6'7".

 

[Dr. Jones]

He and his measurements, lied.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

He did sport a huge afro for a good majority of his career. Had to throw off accurate measurements.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Thats what his draft emasurements were; plus, he himself has stated several times that he is, in fact, 6'7".

I would guess, 6'9" with shoes. Here he is with the nearly 7'1 Darko

 

[Deleted member 848]

I would guess, 6'9" with shoes. Here he is with the nearly 7'1 Darko

https://i1.hoopchina.com.cn/user/708/3821708/127021422202ade.jpg Looks an inch taller than the 6'6.5" Rip hamilton at BEST.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Now that I do extra research, Rip Hamilton was drafted at 6'5"......

Regardless, my point still remains. Ben Wallace is seriously undersized as a center, yet he was arguably the best defender of his respective position our modern era of basketball has ever seen.

 

[Jazz4ever]

I guess he could have graduated to platform shoes later in his career. Its about the only way to explain the conflicting evidence.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I guess he could have graduated to platform shoes later in his career. Its about the only way to explain the conflicting evidence.

It is pretty much general consensus the Ben Wallace is thought to be shorter than his listed height of 6'9". His draft measurements agree with this, my two pictures agree with it as well. Youve found one picture so far in your argument. A bit more is needed to make your case compelling.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Now that I do extra research, Rip Hamilton was drafted at 6'5"......

Regardless, my point still remains. Ben Wallace is seriously undersized as a center, yet he was arguably the best defender of his respective position our modern era of basketball has ever seen.

The guy had an enormous wingspan and probably the strongest player pound for pound in the NBA. He was a good leaper in his younger days as well.
This article is a good explanation.

https://www.82games.com/trueheight.htm

 

[Deleted member 848]

The guy had an enormous wingspan and probably the strongest player pound for pound in the NBA. He was a good leaper in his younger days as well.
This article is a good explanation.

https://www.82games.com/trueheight.htm

a) I enjoy how the first paragraph says that Ben Wallace is 6'7", contradicting your earlier points.
b) Paul Millsap has a 7'2" Wingspan according to Draftexpress, which last time I checked is eeriely similar to Big Ben's.