ENES KANTER: The third and last game of the preparation tourney will start in half an hour

[sepanol]

I continue to wait for you to cite specific examples and evidence supporting Big Al's diminished commitment (and now, your new related claim that he is frustrated). The only information that I've seen about AJ since Kanter was drafted is that he's working out harder, which is close to the opposite of your accusations of Al.

You're also exposing your illogic on this claim when you bring in the "Kanter-Favors" idea. Jefferson didn't know about "Kanter-Favors" last year, so it shouldn't have affected his performance (which I astutely showed to improve after your weakly suggested that losing Deron had something to do with it) or "commitment". Furthermore, with his NBA experience and familiarity with the Jazz system, Al Jefferson is in a far better position to be a franchise player for a minimum of the next several years. Kanter neither has the skills to be part of the "franchise" yet, and we have far less of an idea if EK has commitment to Utah than we do with AJ.

The only higher commitment that Kanter has to Utah is more years left on his contract--two of which are at the team's option. If anything, Kanter has the potential to be a franchise player after Jefferson does; i.e., about 5 seasons from now after AJ is into his 30's. It's possible that Big Al will move (or be moved) to another team before then, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Kanter is a long way away from having the (unofficial) franchise tag attached to him. He needs to learn how to play NBA basketball first, and these past games have given fuzzy indication, at best, that he will reach that potential.

I told that after Kanter draft, AJ may have it on his mind anymore that he is not in the future plans of the team, i didnt tell he did have this idea before.

And do you really think it would help Kanter to grow faster while he is starting or getting some mins behind AJ for 5 seasons ? Durant didnt have a rookie year as people expected but he started all games no matter how many mistakes he did and then he entered to superstar candidate talks in his sophomore year, i can say the same thing for westbrook.

I was always criticizing AJ, it has nothing to do with my homer glass like dalamon tells, i just dont think he is a much better player than Boozer and we all saw the franchise would go nowhere with Boozer a few years ago but we continued to keep him longer. So i find it really unnecessary to get stuck on AJ hoping he will be a great player or whatever. He is already 26 and it is more or less clear what he may and may not achieve in this league. I dont care to enter playoffs this year or the next year and the next year if we are gonna fail like we did in the last 3-4 years.

I just want the team to give the young guys responsibility from today and set the core of the team clear, moving AJ and Harris (if we are gonna get some good assets in return) and get a good young pg like brandon knight and set the 5 man line up of kanter, favors, hayward plus sf and pg. I dont care if we are gonna enter playoffs or will be something like minnesota this year, but i wanna see a real contender in 2-3 years. I just dont want us to repeat the history of last 3-4 years. And my opinion about AJ is pretty clear, and it has nothing to do with Kanter or homer or whatever, Big Al isnt be the man to be the main big guy on a contender. He may be a good offensive player, good shot blocker or you can count many more, but it is pretty obvious, he isnt Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan, neither Griffin and not even Kanter.

 

[Fishsticks]

You Dont Trade away 20 and 10 players just because you have Kanter sitting on the bench. This arguement is asinine. We DONT know what we have in Kanter. He very well could be a BUST. However I do agree with you that Kanter does need playing time, but it needs to come in the confines of the distribution WITH Al. IF Kanter proves to have potential to be a BETTER player than Al then we move him NOT before. Like my cap outs?

 

[sepanol]

You Dont Trade away 20 and 10 players just because you have Kanter sitting on the bench. This arguement is asinine. We DONT know what we have in Kanter. He very well could be a BUST. However I do agree with you that Kanter does need playing time, but it needs to come in the confines of the distribution WITH Al. IF Kanter proves to have potential to be a BETTER player than Al then we move him NOT before. Like my cap outs?

Boozer was a 20 10 player too but what i mean is stats doesnt always prove right , it hides some details indeed. If you can trade away Deron from this team, hell yeah you can trade away a 20 10 guy. If we get something good in return i wouldnt hesitate any second to trade AJ. It is pretty clear, he is not the next Karl Malone. Will Enes be? We dont know, but it is worth trying. At the worst case, if Enes will be a bust(which i dont think he will) you can try to find another replacement for him after a couple of years. Just i dont support the idea to let AJ stay knowing he will not be the franchise player but just we may grab a couple of wins more this year. As i see, many people disagree with me and i respect, but my idea is pretty strict in this case. I dont think i will think differently about AJ after a year from now.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Running a clinic. Sepanol needs to take off his homer glasses for 30 seconds and actually think about how valuable Al could be to this team, especially given his work-ethic this offseason.

Do you believe anything just because it's said? Last year, Al supposedly worked really hard, but how do you quantify that, and does that ultimately matter? He came into camp slow and ended the season slow.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I told that after Kanter draft, AJ may have it on his mind anymore that he is not in the future plans of the team, i didnt tell he did have this idea before.

Jefferson not in the future plans of the Jazz, just because they draft an unproven Eurocenter? Way premature for that--and irrelevant as long as the Jazz don't have 3 legit players at the 4/5 spot without AJ. (Sorry, Mansap; you are two to four inches short of counting.)

And do you really think it would help Kanter to grow faster while he is starting or getting some mins behind AJ for 5 seasons ?

No, but that has nothing to do with Jefferson's commitment or alleged frustration.

Historically, rookies haven't played much for the Jazz, so if he gets 10-15 MPG, consider Kanter lucky. Or really good.

I'm all for the coaching staff playing individuals and team combinations that work the best, while taking into account player development wchic requires some minimual amount of time per game, per season, etc.

Durant didnt have a rookie year as people expected but he started all games no matter how many mistakes he did and then he entered to superstar candidate talks in his sophomore year, i can say the same thing for westbrook.

Not seeing the relevance to the discussion at hand. If anything, you are supporting the notion that players (especially bigs) need PT to develop, which means that unless Jefferson does falter, it's gonna be 10 to 15 MPG for Kanter tops.

I was always criticizing AJ, it has nothing to do with my homer glass like dalamon tells, i just dont think he is a much better player than Boozer and we all saw the franchise would go nowhere with Boozer a few years ago but we continued to keep him longer.

But this has nothing to do with Jefferson's commitment. If anything, it commits Big Al further to the Jazz because if he's not (much) better than Boozer, he's not gonna have a ton of places to go.

So i find it really unnecessary to get stuck on AJ hoping he will be a great player or whatever. He is already 26 . . .

I don't think that it's clear that AJ has peaked, especially since he has had some bad coaching in the past.
https://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=399

. . . and it is more or less clear what he may and may not achieve in this league.

Not to me. If AJ gets in shape or starts deciding to play defense, he has a lot of upside from where he is now.
https://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=399I

Big Al isnt be the man to be the main big guy on a contender. He may be a good offensive player, good shot blocker or you can count many more, but it is pretty obvious, he isnt Nowitzki, Garnett, Duncan, neither Griffin and not even Kanter.

No, but it would be ambitious to hope that a trade would yield someone significantly better, as you seem to be suggesting.

 

[sepanol]

Historically, rookies haven't played much for the Jazz, so if he gets 10-15 MPG, consider Kanter lucky. Or really good.

Matthews and millsap, and even brewer, took pretty good mins on their rookie season so it is not a common rule for utah.

But this has nothing to do with Jefferson's commitment. If anything, it commits Big Al further to the Jazz because if he's not (much) better than Boozer, he's not gonna have a ton of places to go.

If Boozer can sign 5 yr 80 million deal, then AJ can find a stupid enough team with a similar contract. Remember, there are 30 teams in this league and there are very different equations for every team every year, some has free cap space, some doesnt have any legit PF for long years so they can accept even me if i declare im a PF coming from Turkey. So he has many options in this league. But remember, long enough Utah fans, they wont be satisfied with a decent PF as they had Karl Malone in this team for long long years.

Not to me. If AJ gets in shape or starts deciding to play defense, he has a lot of upside from where he is now.

I believe , even if he drinks one of those energy drinks of bugs bunny from space jam, he wont get any better in defense because he just doesnt have the defensive iq.


In general, it seems we are on very different lines and noone will convince eachother, so there is no need to argue on this point anymore. Just I dont dislike AJ, but i have high expectations from a PF to play in jazz. I want to see a top class PF in my team, i dont care 20 10 or 30 15 , whatever the numbers are, i just wanna feel like this is the man who would make big plays in big games under pressure, in difficult conditions. I am not satisfied if someone is making numbers and will be selected to all star 1-2 times and thats it. Thats my hope for Kanter, i expect him to be at least a little bit close to top level PFs. I will be disappointed if he will be something similar to AJ or Boozer.

 

[GVC]

Jefferson not in the future plans of the Jazz, just because they draft an unproven Eurocenter? Way premature for that--and irrelevant as long as the Jazz don't have 3 legit players at the 4/5 spot without AJ. (Sorry, Mansap; you are two to four inches short of counting.)

It's funny how you pick and choose when and when not to use +/-, Adjusted +/-, etc. Millsap is a highly effective/efficient player, who has shown an ability and willingness to work hard to get better and fit whatever role he is asked to play. He is the best player on the roster. Not counting him as a legit 4 is idiotic at best.

 

[InGameStrategy]

It's funny how you pick and choose when and when not to use +/-, Adjusted +/-, etc. Millsap is a highly effective/efficient player, who has shown an ability and willingness to work hard to get better and fit whatever role he is asked to play. He is the best player on the roster. Not counting him as a legit 4 is idiotic at best.

I'm fully aware that Millsap is tops in +/- on the team, and I applaud his effort. His determination makes him one of my favorites. But is he clutch? My recollection--and the data--suggest not.
https://www.82games.com/1011/10UTA11.HTM#clutch

Can he help carry a team in the playoffs? Does his higher effort on defense compensate for even a worse height disadvantage against the likes of Dirk Nowitzki and Pau Gasol than Boozer, who was pwned vs. the Fakers 2 years ago?

Maybe the further development of Favors and the increased commitment of Jefferson to defense are sufficient to make the Millsap-Jefferson-Favors triumvirate sufficient to be called legit. But at an average height of about 6'9" that rotation doesn't seem to be enough. Millsap--the short man out--would seem to be one that could be done without (if the others continue to progress, and if Kanter or a true center takes his place), although I would prefer to have him vs. the current iffy Big Al.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Matthews and millsap, and even brewer, took pretty good mins on their rookie season so it is not a common rule for utah.

Matthews (37 MPG in rookie year) came in when there was a desperate need at the 2 spot, and to his credit, he performed. Right now at the Jazz's 5, though, there are two players (Favors and Jefferson) who are likely better. That's why Kanter had better be good in order to get meaningful minutes. Even Millsap (18 MPG as a rookie) had only one player ahead of him in the lineup.

If Boozer can sign 5 yr 80 million deal, then AJ can find a stupid enough team with a similar contract.

Not anymore. Not in this economy. And not in the new CBA--whatever it becomes.

Remember, there are 30 teams in this league and there are very different equations for every team every year, some has free cap space, some doesnt have any legit PF for long years so they can accept even me if i declare im a PF coming from Turkey. So he has many options in this league. But remember, long enough Utah fans, they wont be satisfied with a decent PF as they had Karl Malone in this team for long long years.

I'd be satisfied with a PF who produces on both ends of the court and can hold his own in the clutch--and the playoffs. Doesn't have to be a Karl Malone.

I believe , even if he drinks one of those energy drinks of bugs bunny from space jam, he wont get any better in defense because he just doesnt have the defensive iq.

It doesn't even take one of Kyle Korver's EVO energy drinks to boost defensive IQ. It just takes a bit of effort and focus--best facilitated by the coaching staff enforcing it.

In general, it seems we are on very different lines and noone will convince eachother . . .

especially when you continue to intersperse your posts with irrelevant statements.

Just I dont dislike AJ, but i have high expectations from a PF to play in jazz. I want to see a top class PF in my team, i dont care 20 10 or 30 15 , whatever the numbers are, i just wanna feel like this is the man who would make big plays in big games under pressure, in difficult conditions. I am not satisfied if someone is making numbers and will be selected to all star 1-2 times and thats it. Thats my hope for Kanter, i expect him to be at least a little bit close to top level PFs. I will be disappointed if he will be something similar to AJ or Boozer.

Homerism alert!

That's my hope for Kanter, too, but right now--in the absence of more data regarding Kanter's ability--the likelihood that Jefferson turns into a cornerstone is higher than Kanter turning into a cornerstone. Especially in the next 2 or 3 years.

 

[Scorpjazz]

It's funny how you pick and choose when and when not to use +/-, Adjusted +/-, etc. Millsap is a highly effective/efficient player, who has shown an ability and willingness to work hard to get better and fit whatever role he is asked to play. He is the best player on the roster. Not counting him as a legit 4 is idiotic at best.

Saying Sap is the best player on our roster IS idiotic at best.

 

[GVC]

Maybe the further development of Favors and the increased commitment of Jefferson to defense are sufficient to make the Millsap-Jefferson-Favors triumvirate sufficient to be called legit. But at an average height of about 6'9" that rotation doesn't seem to be enough. Millsap--the short man out--would seem to be one that could be done without (if the others continue to progress, and if Kanter or a true center takes his place), although I would prefer to have him vs. the current iffy Big Al.

You don't dump superior players in favor of inferior ones because of height alone. Millsap will continue to be a productive team basketball player for years to come (dude was 10th in adj. +/- this season per basketballvalue.com, FWIW). The jury is still out on Big Al, Favors and Kanter.

 

[GVC]

Saying Sap is the best player on our roster IS idiotic at best.

Compelling.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Actually, Sap is probably our best player (or at least the most dynamic) on the roster, which is why we suck so much. I still don't think he should start though because he is a lot more useful coming off the bench.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Opinions on our best 5 players, in order, one being best?

 

[sepanol]

Honestly i dont know the 5 best player but Millsap is the last player in this team that i wanna see him leave. He is very productive and getting paid almost as half of Big Al.
Big Al is also good but for me he isnt worth 14 million per year.
And maybe it is early but i would put Hayward among best 2-3 players in this team. He has amazing fundamentals, the ball fits on his hand so well. Even when he wasnt that good in the beginning of the season, he showed promise, he really knows how to play basketball. And i think one of the biggest good sides of DWill trade is that Hayward had confidence boost afterwards.

 

[sepanol]

Matthews (37 MPG in rookie year) came in when there was a desperate need at the 2 spot, and to his credit, he performed. Right now at the Jazz's 5, though, there are two players (Favors and Jefferson) who are likely better. That's why Kanter had better be good in order to get meaningful minutes. Even Millsap (18 MPG as a rookie) had only one player ahead of him in the lineup.

Not anymore. Not in this economy. And not in the new CBA--whatever it becomes.

I'd be satisfied with a PF who produces on both ends of the court and can hold his own in the clutch--and the playoffs. Doesn't have to be a Karl Malone.

It doesn't even take one of Kyle Korver's EVO energy drinks to boost defensive IQ. It just takes a bit of effort and focus--best facilitated by the coaching staff enforcing it.

especially when you continue to intersperse your posts with irrelevant statements.

Homerism alert!

That's my hope for Kanter, too, but right now--in the absence of more data regarding Kanter's ability--the likelihood that Jefferson turns into a cornerstone is higher than Kanter turning into a cornerstone. Especially in the next 2 or 3 years.

Whatever i say , you will find a suitable way to manipulate my answers and say it is irrelevant, but if KOC has shared your opinion, he wouldnt probably have drafted Kanter. So at this point, AJ should create miracles in order to prove he is a good asset for this team in long term. (Considering the possible heavy salaries Hayward, Favors and maybe even Kanter and Burks will get in a few years, it doesnt seem possible)

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Best 5 players on Jazz.....

1a. Jefferson
1b. Millsap
3. Harris
4. AK (if we are talking about last year/him still being on the team this year)
5. Miles
6. Favors (if AK is not on team)

Hayward didn't do enough all season to be a top 5 player
Everyone else sucks
The rookies haven't done anything

If I had to predict an end of the year top 5...

1. Jefferson
2. Millsap
3. Hayward
4. Harris
5. Favors

 

[InGameStrategy]

You don't dump superior players in favor of inferior ones because of height alone. Millsap will continue to be a productive team basketball player for years to come (dude was 10th in adj. +/- this season per basketballvalue.com, FWIW). The jury is still out on Big Al, Favors and Kanter.

Who said anything about dumping anyone? (That's what she said.)

Mansap has 2 years left at a relatively reasonable price of about $7 million (it still amazes me that such a salary can be considered a bargain), and it'll probably take that long to more fully assess the upside for Kanter and Favors. Toward that point, the comparison will be clearer.

In the meantime, it's quite possible that Millsap will continue improving, too; he's already shown to be able to make a winning clutch shot a few times. (As for being able to defend Dirk or Pau, he might have to depend on opponents' aging rather than his own spinal stretching.)

Glad to see you citing +/- to attempt to support your point, though .
(And good to have you advancing the notion that team contribution > individual stats, a notion vastly ignored in the prior usage of Fesenko (and even Elson), who didn't have a box score (or off-court work ethic) to support his on-court contribution, even though the latter is the most important metric. Millsap, to his credit, holds his own in all of these aspects.)

 

[orangello]

My top 5

1. Millsap
2. Harris
3.(a) Jefferson
3.(b) Hayward
5. Favors

 

[orangello]

Jefferson is down on my list for obvious reasons that I have discussed here many times. Miles is nowhere to be found becuase of his lack of stability. AK is missing becuase he is not under any sort of contract with the Jazz. If he was he would easily be #2.