Good Article - "NBA Free Agency 2016: Utah Jazz cap situation and future-proofing"

[Handlogten's Heros]

The problem with their argument goes beyond the no-injury assumption. Even if the average player misses ~5 games, cutting each player's minutes by 10% would create another 25.5 minutes per game for another player.

An example using the roster from the start of this past season: Assume 77 games are played by each player, so that each position needs 51 minutes per game filled. Here's a rotation that provides appropriate(-ish) minutes for the stars, vets and main depth players:

5 - Gobert(33) Favors(18)
4 - Favors(15) Lyles(18) Booker(18)
3 - Hayward(35) Ingles(12) Hood(4)
2 - Burks(28) Hood(23)
1 - Exum(27) Burke(12) Neto(12)

Totals:
Hayward(35)
Gobert(33)
Favors(33)
Burks(28)
Hood(27)
Exum(27)
Lyles(18)
Booker(18)
Ingles(12)
Burke(12)
Neto(12)

Taking ~10% off each player's minutes and adding a free agent rotation player (with 27 minutes per game) -- bringing the rotation to 12 players:
Hayward(32)
Gobert(30)
Favors(30)
Free Agent(27)
Exum(26)
Burks(24)
Hood(24)
Lyles(16)
Booker(16)
Ingles(10)
Burke(10)
Neto(10)

Beyond this cutting of 10% of existing rotation minutes, you have 46 'depth' minutes going to Neto, Burke, Ingles and Booker. Further, if players are in need of more playing time, other players can be traded for other assets. There was plenty of flexibility to add talent to the roster. If DL and Quin aren't creative enough to make use of additional talent, the Jazz are screwed. The team doesn't have enough talent to contend now or in the future. Operating out of Utah, the team can't let prime opportunities to add talent or other assets go to waste.

This is the super duper smart way to make the argument I was making. most of the players I wanted to add played multiple positions... If they have NBA skills a great coach finds a way to utilize them.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We were beating the best teams in the west with a defense that was best in the league by a long shot, but go ahead and downplay it. Like I said, we don't really know what conversations DL has been involved in. Everybody was crying in their beer after the deadline passed because they just knew the Jazz just sat on their hands and didn't try to make any trades. Then we find out that Utah was trying to acquire Teague and backed out because they didn't want to give up Hood, and funny thing is, NOBODY else traded for Teague either, because, low and behold, the Hawks were just seeing if they could rob somebody.

Like I said, I was never a cake baker, and I wanted Utah to trade for Lawson BEFORE Exum even got injured. I just think fans make a lot of assumptions and get a little to impatient with the process. Right now I think DL has done just fine. Now if the team sucks again next year and DL allows a situation where Hayward walks for nothing, I will gladly pick up a pitchfork and march right along with the rest of the malcontents to the tar and feather pole. Until then, I'm giving DL the benefit of the doubt because I believe the competition for players right now is extremely stiff.

I've never mentioned the trade deadline... That rant is a complete straw man. We beat some good teams and went like 19-10 down the stretch... That's great but it's an awfully limited sample size to hang your hat on.

I don't know individual conversations that is correct... I do know some guys were signed for half what I would have paid them... Some of those guys became bargains... We ended the year with excess cap space that doesn't do **** for us... I'm guessing if we doubled Lin, Casspis salary they would have come here... I'm guessing if we had called Milwaukee with one of our many second rounders for Dudley that they would have done business with us rather than a team they were directly competing with.

The effed up... DL all but admitted it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Every team has injuries every year.

It isn't just injuries though. It's the length of them and who gets them.

For instance. Let's look at the remaining teams in the playoffs.

How many games did key (top 8) players miss for the thunder, warriors, cavs, and raptors miss?
I'm guessing not very many. No where near the jazz.

Regardless of what the jazz did last summer when you have as many injuries to your top guys as the jazz did, and not have a true star player (I don't think we could have got a star last summer), then you won't be very good. That's just the way it is. For every team. No matter how much depth they have.

The jazz top guys missed about 180 games.

If the thunder, cavs, spurs, and warriors have their top 8 guys miss around 180 games then they wouldn't be very good. And those teams are the cream of the crop and have superstars to help carry then when injuries strike. Yet even those teams would struggle.

Yes the jazz should have done more in free agency last summer. There I said it.
If they had picked up a few guys I still don't think we would have been very good though and there is no guarantee they wouldn't get hurt too or that they would perform at the level we expected when we signed them (carroll, green, matthews)

Then if we stay healthy we have a talented, high paid player getting disgruntled while sitting on the bench.

Those that say "then we just just them" like it so easy, I don't think it is always that easy time get good value on disgruntled bench players (kanter?).

 

[fishonjazz]

Personally, I think y'all are a little touched in the head with stifle tower syndrome. In other words. I'm not sure why so many fans want to take what is said to the media quite so ****ing literally. What do you guys expect DL to say when asked about the team? We have 4 or 5 guys we'd like to keep and are really hoping we can trade the rest for better players? I'm sorry, but THE CAKE IS A LIE!, and it always has been. It's just one of those things management says to the media to try and appease the fans while at the same time not killing morale among the players.

It really cracks me up that over the last few years, DL matched a contract for Hayward that 90% of fans thought he shouldn't, gave a contract to Burks that a lot of fans questioned, and by all accounts, he and Quin were preparing to match a ridiculous contract for Kanter, but now fans think he was somehow not aware of the financial situation the team would be faced with over the next few years.

Here's a thought: Did anyone ever consider that maybe FAs aren't lining up to come sign in Utah? Some of you guys act like opportunities to improve the team were just jumping in the air trying to land in our boat, and DL has been beating them off with a stick. Well, sorry, but I think you're full of ****.

Just one season ago, Utah had the best Defense in the league, 4th best point differential, and was one of the best teams in the NBA for half a season before injuries kicked our ***. But now it seems, everyone wants to blow it off as a fluke, because apparently most fans only watch players when they are playing offense.

Perhaps management could have been a little more aggressive, but most of the complaints here are just based on jumping to a bunch of conclusions about opportunities that none of know the details of, or whether or not they existed at all.

Yep

 

[fishonjazz]

Utah has been able to sign free agents and make trades in the past. KOC did both to great effect after Stockton retired and Malone left. Is it possible that the only players who Utah has had any shot at signing or trading for the last 4 years are Mack and Booker? I suppose. It doesn't seem very likely.

Apparently you think they are currently stupid and cheap then. That's the only explanation.

I would hate to be a fan who thought that about my favorite team. I feel bad for you bro

 

[fishonjazz]

We could have traded for some of the salary dump guys or offered some of the guys like Lin or Casspi twice as much and they would have come here and still would have been bargains. We didn't try to get in those conversations (at least it seems).

I get it we likely won't get top tier guys but don't act like we were some juggernaut. We had a good run to end a season but a handful of those wins came as teams were laying down.

We have some good pieces for sure... But we had opportunities to get more good pieces and punted. Management isn't flawless.

Good post. We could have got some dudes. Maybe got a tiny bit better. That's what people are so upset about? Lin and casspi don't move the needle towards a championship much imo. And when the team is healthy don't move the needle at all from the bench imo.

 

[fishonjazz]

Personally, I think y'all are a little touched in the head with stifle tower syndrome. In other words. I'm not sure why so many fans want to take what is said to the media quite so ****ing literally. What do you guys expect DL to say when asked about the team? We have 4 or 5 guys we'd like to keep and are really hoping we can trade the rest for better players? I'm sorry, but THE CAKE IS A LIE!, and it always has been. It's just one of those things management says to the media to try and appease the fans while at the same time not killing morale among the players.

It really cracks me up that over the last few years, DL matched a contract for Hayward that 90% of fans thought he shouldn't, gave a contract to Burks that a lot of fans questioned, and by all accounts, he and Quin were preparing to match a ridiculous contract for Kanter, but now fans think he was somehow not aware of the financial situation the team would be faced with over the next few years.

Here's a thought: Did anyone ever consider that maybe FAs aren't lining up to come sign in Utah? Some of you guys act like opportunities to improve the team were just jumping in the air trying to land in our boat, and DL has been beating them off with a stick. Well, sorry, but I think you're full of ****.

Just one season ago, Utah had the best Defense in the league, 4th best point differential, and was one of the best teams in the NBA for half a season before injuries kicked our ***. But now it seems, everyone wants to blow it off as a fluke, because apparently most fans only watch players when they are playing offense.

Perhaps management could have been a little more aggressive, but most of the complaints here are just based on jumping to a bunch of conclusions about opportunities that none of know the details of, or whether or not they existed at all.

Lol, GVC just negged me. Ouch. Anyway, like I said, I think DL could have been more aggressive, and I'm far from a cake baker. However, I think the team was in fantastic shape before Exum got injured, and it just gets a little annoying to listen to people gripe about what a complete failure DL has been. I think it's horse ****, and will continue to call a spade a spade. Carry on.

We were beating the best teams in the west with a defense that was best in the league by a long shot, but go ahead and downplay it. Like I said, we don't really know what conversations DL has been involved in. Everybody was crying in their beer after the deadline passed because they just knew the Jazz just sat on their hands and didn't try to make any trades. Then we find out that Utah was trying to acquire Teague and backed out because they didn't want to give up Hood, and funny thing is, NOBODY else traded for Teague either, because, low and behold, the Hawks were just seeing if they could rob somebody.

Like I said, I was never a cake baker, and I wanted Utah to trade for Lawson BEFORE Exum even got injured. I just think fans make a lot of assumptions and get a little to impatient with the process. Right now I think DL has done just fine. Now if the team sucks again next year and DL allows a situation where Hayward walks for nothing, I will gladly pick up a pitchfork and march right along with the rest of the malcontents to the tar and feather pole. Until then, I'm giving DL the benefit of the doubt because I believe the competition for players right now is extremely stiff.

Cappy owning the discussion like usual.

It's all been said before though man. They won't listen. No point in going over it again and again.

I'm going to stop with this argument now. That way naos can claim his victory when he sees silence that he takes for surrender rather than the boredom that it really represents.

 

[fishonjazz]

The problem with their argument goes beyond the no-injury assumption. Even if the average player misses ~5 games, cutting each player's minutes by 10% would create another 25.5 minutes per game for another player.

An example using the roster from the start of this past season: Assume 77 games are played by each player, so that each position needs 51 minutes per game filled. Here's a rotation that provides appropriate(-ish) minutes for the stars, vets, youth and main depth players:

5 - Gobert(33) Favors(18)
4 - Favors(15) Lyles(18) Booker(18)
3 - Hayward(35) Ingles(12) Hood(4)
2 - Burks(28) Hood(23)
1 - Exum(27) Burke(12) Neto(12)

Totals:
Hayward(35)
Gobert(33)
Favors(33)
Burks(28)
Hood(27)
Exum(27)
Lyles(18)
Booker(18)
Ingles(12)
Burke(12)
Neto(12)

Taking ~10% off each player's minutes and adding a free agent rotation player (with 27 minutes per game) -- bringing the rotation to 12 players:
Hayward(32)
Gobert(30)
Favors(30)
Free Agent(27)
Exum(26)
Burks(24)
Hood(24)
Lyles(16)
Booker(16)
Ingles(10)
Burke(10)
Neto(10)

Beyond this cutting of 10% of existing rotation minutes, you have 46 'depth' minutes going to Neto, Burke, Ingles and Booker. Further, if players are in need of more playing time, other players can be traded for other assets. There was plenty of flexibility to add talent to the roster. If DL and Quin aren't creative enough to make use of additional talent, the Jazz are screwed. The team doesn't have enough talent to contend now or in the future. Operating out of Utah, the team can't let prime opportunities to add talent or other assets go to waste.

Good post with good research and good info.

So according this post the jazz should have expected injuries to open up 25-27 minutes for a free agent.

So if the jazz would have just signed a guy like omri casspi to take those minutes then that would make you happy?
Casspi and lin takes the jazz from the dumbest, cheapest, worst ran franchise ever to a well run franchise that did a good job?
Ok I guess. They did get mack though!!!

 

[fishonjazz]

These discussions just seem like "the jazz didn't do what I wanted them to do so now I'm going to pout and act like everything is ruined and the sky is falling."

I really wanted the jazz to get a point guard in free agency last summer.
I really wanted the jazz to trade for jeff teague this season. Both of those moves might have got us into the playoffs.
I'm not going to pout cause they didn't follow my plan though.

They have drafted guys that I didn't think they should.

I think they should trade Hayward this off season.

I want them to cash in assets for a star.

I don't think jazz management is perfect. They don't always do what I think is best.
I don't pout about it though.

I can recognize that even though they don't do everything that I think they should do they have still assembled a fringe playoff team with some very young and talented players, tons of financial flexibility, and lots of future draft picks and I think that due to what they have done (forget about what they have not done) they should continue to get better and better in the coming years and I look forward to it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Good post with good research and good info.

So according this post the jazz should have expected injuries to open up 25-27 minutes for a free agent.

So if the jazz would have just signed a guy like omri casspi to take those minutes then that would make you happy?
Casspi and lin takes the jazz from the dumbest, cheapest, worst ran franchise ever to a well run franchise that did a good job?
Ok I guess. They did get mack though!!!

I think they went cheap but they are not dumb by any means. Just think they missed an opportunity and it bit us in the *** (probably harder than usual). One player could have made a world of difference for us... Not in winning a championship but in the progression we could have taken. Many of the injuries hit at the same time which exaggerated the problem. Also, Booker and Ingles both were in a funk at the same time. Casspi, jerebko, Dudley all would have impacted us... 2-3 wins is all we needed and we would have been in the playoffs and gotten some needed experience. It pushed our timetable back a year and if that costs us Hayward it pushes it back even further.

I like DL and he had other priorities... He also may have been given a budget. Our actual dollars paid out were damn near the salary floor.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

These discussions just seem like "the jazz didn't do what I wanted them to do so now I'm going to pout and act like everything is ruined and the sky is falling."

I really wanted the jazz to get a point guard in free agency last summer.
I really wanted the jazz to trade for jeff teague this season. Both of those moves might have got us into the playoffs.
I'm not going to pout cause they didn't follow my plan though.

They have drafted guys that I didn't think they should.

I think they should trade Hayward this off season.

I want them to cash in assets for a star.

I don't think jazz management is perfect. They don't always do what I think is best.
I don't pout about it though.

I can recognize that even though they don't do everything that I think they should do they have still assembled a fringe playoff team with some very young and talented players, tons of financial flexibility, and lots of future draft picks and I think that due to what they have done (forget about what they have not done) they should continue to get better and better in the coming years and I look forward to it.

Not pouting just a bit bitter about them not making a move... Not one move in particular but any move. I recognize DL has found draft gems and think he's a good GM. Good gms make mistakes and that one cost us. Financial flexibility doesn't help me as a fan of you don't do anything with it.

We have a good team with great guys and have some very good things going for us. We are at a tipping point though and it is fun to discuss what should be done.

 

[fishonjazz]

Not pouting just a bit bitter about them not making a move... Not one move in particular but any move. I recognize DL has found draft gems and think he's a good GM. Good gms make mistakes and that one cost us. Financial flexibility doesn't help me as a fan of you don't do anything with it.

We have a good team with great guys and have some very good things going for us. We are at a tipping point though and it is fun to discuss what should be done.

I wasn't really talking about you with the pouting comment. You see both good and bad. That's a good thing.

I was more directing the pouting comment towards franklin and gvc I guess.

And I definitely have went over board in my defense of management.

They should have got some dudes last summer. I was wrong about the cake baking I think (Though from the beginning I thought they should have got a point guard last summer).
I just don't think it's that big a deal or that egregious of an error.
I think the jazz are in great shape right now.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I think they went cheap but they are not dumb by any means. Just think they missed an opportunity and it bit us in the *** (probably harder than usual). One player could have made a world of difference for us... Not in winning a championship but in the progression we could have taken. Many of the injuries hit at the same time which exaggerated the problem. Also, Booker and Ingles both were in a funk at the same time. Casspi, jerebko, Dudley all would have impacted us... 2-3 wins is all we needed and we would have been in the playoffs and gotten some needed experience. It pushed our timetable back a year and if that costs us Hayward it pushes it back even further.

I like DL and he had other priorities... He also may have been given a budget. Our actual dollars paid out were damn near the salary floor.

- Jerebko, Lin, and Casspi? I don't think you could find a single poster who was against the pickups of those players last season. Not to mention Jerebko still being under contract. I even made a thread asking us to trade Enes for Avery Bradley before he got traded to OKC. Ppl are misremembering the cake-bake argument. Zero ppl had attachment to Chris Johnson, Pleiss, or thought that Joe Ingles should be our 3rd wing. I personally was more against the pickups of the likes of Kris Middleton, Tobias Harris, Danny Green, and Demarre Carroll-- which were the names constantly brought up that offseason because they could have been had before the cap exploded. I'd rather spend the Demarre money on a Courtney Lee/ Allen Crabbe type wing + PG insurance.

- Jeremy Lin was signed a full month before Dante tore his ACL. The FO decided to roll the dice on Burke bringing them Lin-esque production from the bench, and they got burned. That's one place you can point and say "they should have signed him" and that's very fair. But that could also be said for all 30 other teams in the NBA. No FO is perfect. Ours is pretty dang good. The hysterics here are mostly from posters who tend to post in them.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

- Jerebko, Lin, and Casspi? I don't think you could find a single poster who was against the pickups of those players last season. Not to mention Jerebko still being under contract. I even made a thread asking us to trade Enes for Avery Bradley before he got traded to OKC. Ppl are misremembering the cake-bake argument. Zero ppl had attachment to Chris Johnson, Pleiss, or thought that Joe Ingles should be our 3rd wing. I personally was more against the pickups of the likes of Kris Middleton, Tobias Harris, Danny Green, and Demarre Carroll-- which were the names constantly brought up that offseason because they could have been had before the cap exploded. I'd rather spend the Demarre money on a Courtney Lee/ Allen Crabbe type wing + PG insurance.

- Jeremy Lin was signed a full month before Dante tore his ACL. The FO decided to roll the dice on Burke bringing them Lin-esque production from the bench, and they got burned. That's one place you can point and say "they should have signed him" and that's very fair. But that could also be said for all 30 other teams in the NBA. No FO is perfect. Ours is pretty dang good. The hysterics here are mostly from posters who tend to post in them.

I've said nothing about cake baking in this thread... that said if you cold have got one of the bigger guys you do it... they were in demand and I get why we didnt get them. You outlined my argument perfectly... no one was against acquiring one of the second or third tier free agents and we could have had any of the guys mentioned except maybe Jerebko (he wasn't under contract last year). Say we offered 3 years and 15 M to Casspi... he doesn't take the Kings offer (or renegotiates) and comes here. We would have a trade asset or another solid rotation player.

I understand why we didn't get a pg... the timing of the Exum injury was rough. I don't get why we gave up on Burke. He showed improvement and then we pulled him from the rotation and he checked out. If we weren't committed to him then we should have moved on in the summer and got a guy like Lin.

We ended the year with enough excess cap space to accommodate any of those guys... I give DL and the front office credit... I also will be critical when they eff up... no hysteria... no calling for heads... Just pointing out a mistake we made that hurt us and will cost us. Correcting that mistake now either costs us a ton or costs us some trade assets.

 

[silesian]

Listening to DL talk recently has made this mistake even more obvious. Mentioned how we had an offer for a good veteran on a good contract for Trey Lyles. We could have gotten a good veteran on a good contract by just signing them.

You have that backwards. DL said that they had opportunity to give up assets (Lyles) to get a vet. They could not get a vet "just by signing them" -- that is what is called free agency, which does not happen in the middle of the season.

It is in this offseason when the Jazz have the opportunity in free agency to get a good vet without giving up Lyles or other assets.

 

[GVC]

So according this post the jazz should have expected injuries to open up 25-27 minutes for a free agent.

No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.

So if the jazz would have just signed a guy like omri casspi to take those minutes then that would make you happy?
Casspi and lin takes the jazz from the dumbest, cheapest, worst ran franchise ever to a well run franchise that did a good job?
Ok I guess. They did get mack though!!!

For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.

 

[GVC]

You have that backwards. DL said that they had opportunity to give up assets (Lyles) to get a vet. They could not get a vet "just by signing them" -- that is what is called free agency, which does not happen in the middle of the season.

It is in this offseason when the Jazz have the opportunity in free agency to get a good vet without giving up Lyles or other assets.

That's exactly what he's saying. Had DL signed a free agent last summer, he wouldn't have had to discuss giving up young lotto picks for vets.

 

[fishonjazz]

No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz have had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.

Some very good points. I usually will listen to someone else side of a discussion if A. They are respectful. B. They have done their homework and C. They actually acknowledge when I am respectful, and do my homework and make good points.

Like when I discuss with HH he at least sees my side of things and understands where I'm coming from and occasionally says that I said something he at least partly agrees with. There is a give and take there.

Im not real computer savvy and it sucks when I spend a lot of time pouring over information and then present a post full of good info in a respectful way and never ever see you or naos or some others give that post any kind of credit or acknowledgment.

It makes me frustrated and makes me not want to see your side at all.



I often find myself saying things like good point, I didn't realize that, I'm flat out wrong, I can see your side but just disagree.

I rarely get responses like that from others and it gets frustrating.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.

Another well thought out post and a quick aside...

Traditionally the keep the band together approach worked really well because contracts were longer. I think turnover is going to be necessary as contracts shorten... championship windows get smaller under the current CBA. If you have a decent all star under contract longer you can be patient over multiple offseasons and do a slow build... if those guys are free agents more often then you have to do things when its prudent to help retain those guys.

I think showing progress to Hayward was important... maybe he sees it. I just wish we had something to show for our financial flexibility... it has basically run out.

 

[Deleted member 848]

No. If you start with the original 11-man rotation, which includes 5 missed games for each player, and then cut ~10% of each player's minutes, you're left with ~27 minutes for an additional player. There are also 46 depth minutes going to Booker, Ingles, Burke and Neto that could be reallocated or be given to free agents. That's 70+ minutes potentially available to free agents without significant cuts to key players or developing youth.

The point:

The common assertion that the Jazz couldn't add players because there weren't enough minutes to go around is absurd. Even if you accept that young players need to be handed loads of minutes right away to develop -- I don't; it's ridiculous -- in almost all cases, there are more than enough minutes to add talent. The Jazz had plenty of available playing time to sign players in either the 2014 or 2015 offseason. People making this argument should reassess. If they feel it's their duty to defend DL, they should provide arguments that at least make sense.



For me at least, it's not all about last season (I really didn't care if the Jazz made the playoffs). My broader point is that the Jazz can't waste opportunities to add talent. Added players can benefit the team now, and can potentially be used in trades to acquire other players and draft picks. HH and NAOS have made a few good points:

1. HH: You don't have to give up picks to sign free agents. All they cost is cap space, which the Jazz had in abundance the last two offseasons.

2. NAOS: Players you sign can later be traded, even if only in salary dumps for expiring contracts. The Magic didn't want to keep Tobias Harris, so they traded him for two players on expiring contracts.

3. HH: With the cap set to jump this summer, and with so many teams having cap space, there will likely be far fewer available free agent bargains than there were in either 2014 or 2015.


Outside of a couple of trades in the summer of 2013, DL has been remarkably inactive. I don't think passivity is going to work in Utah. You can't waste opportunities to add talent/assets if you hope to build a competitive, entertaining team. Like many posters, I'm in agreement that this is the year for DL to prove himself. If he fails to add talent or the Jazz miss the playoffs or Gordo leaves next summer, it'll probably be time to find a more capable GM.

I will say this-- I think there is a lot that needs to be said about how enlightening it can be for a team when their young players are forced into big minute roles. We're kinda seeing this right now in the playoffs-- I'm not sure anyone in the world thought that Biyombo could do what he's doing right now, sustained over 40 minutes a game. And if it wasn't for Val going down, there's a damn good chance that no one ever would. Val was cleared to play, and didn't even get a single minute off the bench, even though last round he was arguably saving the Raptors from elimination while Lowry and DDR were M.I.A.

Biyombo hasn't changed as a player from a month ago to where he is now-- it's just that the opportunity presented itself, and the stability of role is bringing him comfort and confidence.

That's how I feel about Lyles. Signing Tobias Harris really didn't seem at all like a sensible fit on offense-- and it's obvious that Lyles' development got accelerated once he got steady minutes while DFav sat out with injuries.

We are now at the point where as a team Lyles has basically filled the role that Harris would normally play, and I'm not sure anyone would want him on the contract that he's currently on. I think most of us prefer Lyles to Tobias being our 3rd big moving forward. Many wouldn't have said that at the start of the season-- ppl were worried he couldnt even shoot over 30% from 3 thanks to his college numbers.


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I think that the truth lies somewhere in the middle. A blind devotion to the young core the team has assembled w/o care for additional asset acquisition is narrow-minded and a recipe for treadmilling in terms of team success. Every offseason there are role players who are bought low and end up being key cogs for competitive teams-- and the onus is on every FO to make sure they're scouring the league for those players.

But I think it's important to assert that we're talking about role players here. Boston is probably the most bullish when it comes to player acquisition-- but if you roam through that roster, you'll find that most players acquired outside of the draft were cast-offs from a former team (Jerebko, Turner, Isaiah Thomas, Amir Johnson, Crowder, Zeller). It's much more easy to work with asserting roles onto these sorts of players & giving them bench roles the the likes of Demarre. You think he's gonna choose coming off the bench in Utah over starting in Toronto?

Yes, the argument that says the signed contracts from last offseason are moveable and we still get a net positive out of them in terms of assets is super valid-- although I would also enjoy seeing a list of max-deals that have been traded before their first year completes. But personally I would rather side with a promising year of Trey Lyles development than ending the season with a crippled Brandon Jennings and the oft-injured Ersan Ilyasova. Some wold argue that the presence of Harris wouldn't have inhibited Trey's development-- and with that I disagree.


I'm more upset with not making a bigger acquisition at the deadline than just Shelvin Mack. Acquiring a wing with any semblance of offense would have been a godsend. We had the assets for it. In July we figured we'd have Dante and Burks for an entire season, and we lost both. For DL's vantage point it seems like he overvalued team chemistry, and understood not being hesitant to acquire roster depth. I guess we'll see if he meant it this coming offseason.

Another well thought out post and a quick aside...

Traditionally the keep the band together approach worked really well because contracts were longer. I think turnover is going to be necessary as contracts shorten... championship windows get smaller under the current CBA. If you have a decent all star under contract longer you can be patient over multiple offseasons and do a slow build... if those guys are free agents more often then you have to do things when its prudent to help retain those guys.

I think showing progress to Hayward was important... maybe he sees it. I just wish we had something to show for our financial flexibility... it has basically run out.

I've been saying this for weeks now. If Hayward leaves, this rebuild is a dumpster-fire. The team really needs to show him that they're for real. 2017 is a big year. Fortunately, they're really well equipped to take that next step. A couple of decisions here and there will explode the potential of this group. I'd consider banishing Exum to the bench and picking up Conley (although it's unlikely he comes here) if that's what it takes to keep Gordon.