Hayward is fool's gold

[Deleted member 5000]

Hayward shut George down this season, remember that I mean it was bad. Remember that he got ejected in the final minutes

 

[Et tu Brute]

How was Gallo's rpm in the playoffs this year compared to Hayward's? What about other stats besides that 1? How about defense? Gallo would be an okay addition at the right price but he does not replace what Hayward brings.

Hayward's was our sole focal point on offense and he carried us to the playoffs along with Gobert. Gallo would be a clear step back if he is healthy.

Gallo is at least the equal defender. What stats you want?
Hayward has a slightly better eFG%. PER loves Hayward almost as much as Gobert.
Gallo had a better offensive rating, but Hayward better net rating (Gobert factor?).
GH slightly better A/TO ratio and REB%.

These were pretty marginal.

So like I inferred, Hayward is a similar (albeit slightly better) player than Gallo.


You think Hayward is the main reason Jazz made playoffs?

 

[fishonjazz]

There are more tiers than this.

You left off CP3 off your list btw.

But above Hayward are a number of players:

Cousins
Gobert
Conley
Greek Freak
Lowry
Butler
Blake
Green
Conley
Love

And that's ignoring the players who project to be better than Hayward over the next contract:
Jokic
Lillard
Embiid
Simmons
Fultz
Booker
Porzingis
KAT
Porter
Covington
Kyrie


He is on the tier below all of them moving forward.

Now I get that Hayward is a versatile son of a gun. He can create his own shot, knock down 3s and get to the line. He can share the ball and rebound, while being able to stay in front of most 3s and bang down low with some 4s. He is a really really nice player.

But his walking will not be the single factor that stops the Jazz being able to achieve a championship. Nor will it be enough for the Celtics to get out of the East.

Also, I would take George everyday of the week over Hayward.

You listed Conley twice.
I would take hayward over conley, lowry, cousins (attitude issues kill his value to me), love, jokic, booker, porter, covington (lol at those last two), and maybe simmons.

 

[Deleted member 5000]

Also the greek freak was held to under 10pt like only 3 times this season once was when he matched up against hayward

 

[fishonjazz]

Also the greek freak was held to under 10pt like only 3 times this season once was when he matched up against hayward

Ya that's a tough one for me. There are a few maybes that could go either way
I would probably take Giannis over Hayward but it's close. Same with kyrie.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Hayward shut George down this season, remember that I mean it was bad. Remember that he got ejected in the final minutes

Then clearly Hayward is better right.
Two game sample size and all.

 

[Et tu Brute]

You listed Conley twice.
I would take hayward over conley, lowry, cousins (attitude issues kill his value to me), love, jokic, booker, porter, covington (lol at those last two), and maybe simmons.

Covington will prob win multiple rings.
Not sure how many better perimeter defenders there are in the NBA.

The guy might be in the top 3 - 3&D guys.

I also might take Hayward over some of those guys. But I don't think Hayward is objectively better than them.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Naw Gtime is a top 15 player after his end of this season /playoff performance

Yep. He had an incredible -8.8 net rating.
Super star...

 

[Et tu Brute]

Hayward played like a superstar in the playoffs. I made that statement and it's true.


Sent from my iPhone using JazzFanz mobile app

Hmmm.
Net rating -8.8. Sweeped out of the second round.

= Superstar

Let's face it, Gobert was hurt and couldn't bring it like he had all year.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Hayward has closed gap on shooting, Klay still better. But Klay has defenses focused on KD, Steph, whereas GH has to create own shot more frequently. Still their efficiencies are similar. Defense is a push. Hayward much better on the boards and creating shots for others.

Despite W's notoriety, sportswriters picked GH over KT in All NBA voting.

I won't debate your 30 GMs comments since I don't talk to them, but I would say it is a dubious and unsupported statement.

These same writers had Lebron out of their top 3 for MVP right?

 

[silesian]

Yep. He had an incredible -8.8 net rating.
Super star...

Using a straight plus minus. Surely you know that the W's series skews these stats and would never be used by a serious analyst to judge individual performance. Hey LeBron was big-time negative against the W's -- no way he's a superstar!

Btw, Jazz were -17.7 with Hayward off the floor.

 

[silesian]

And that's ignoring the players who project to be better than Hayward over the next contract:
Covington

He is on the tier below all of them moving forward.

I'm a Sixer fan and huge Covington homer. Watch him play all the time. He will be a nice rotation piece on a great team.

You just lost all credibility by saying he will surpass Hayward.

His offensive game is limited. And 3-and-D guys usually shoot better than 35% on 3s. I could go on and on, but this point I think is obvious to everyone but you. And I think your mind is made up.

 

[LoPo]

Using a straight plus minus. Surely you know that the W's series skews these stats and would never be used by a serious analyst to judge individual performance. Hey LeBron was big-time negative against the W's -- no way he's a superstar!

Btw, Jazz were -17.7 with Hayward off the floor.

Actually, I think the Cavs outscored the Warriors over the 5 games whenever LeBron was on the court. He is that damn good.

But I see the point you were making.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[stitches]

Actually, I think the Cavs outscored the Warriors over the 5 games whenever LeBron was on the court. He is that damn good.

But I see the point you were making.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

They didn't, they were -7 with Lebron on the floor for the 5 games. Which BTW means absolutely nothing. I wish people would stop trying to make points using small sample +/- stats. Those are useless on small samples. This has got to be my biggest pet-peeve in NBA today.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I did note that it was 'recency biased'.

Also, I cherry-picked from a full season. Not sure that counts as cherry picking.

Also... made u look didn't I?

The best argument to make from the last few years data is that Hayward has maxed out his potential. Gallo hasn't.

Hayward has improved every year if his career. This year was his best year. He also took a step up again in the playoffs. There is no proof that he has peaked. You also are basing all this off of 1 stat that is pretty weak.

 

[LoPo]

They didn't, they were -7 with Lebron on the floor for the 5 games. Which BTW means absolutely nothing. I wish people would stop trying to make points using small sample +/- stats. Those are useless on small samples. This has got to be my biggest pet-peeve in NBA today.

I agree. +/- can be misleading. You have to admit it is pretty incredible that the Cavs were only -7 with LBJ playing considering they lost by double digits twice, 5 and 9. That 12-0 run GS went on in Game 3 when he only sat 2 minutes was a clear sign that LBJ means that much.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[stitches]

I agree. +/- can be misleading. You have to admit it is pretty incredible that the Cavs were only -7 with LBJ playing considering they lost by double digits twice, 5 and 9. That 12-0 run GS went on in Game 3 when he only sat 2 minutes was a clear sign that LBJ means that much.

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

Yeah, LeBron is an absolute monster. I haven't seen such dominance since MJ.

 

[Et tu Brute]

I'm a Sixer fan and huge Covington homer. Watch him play all the time. He will be a nice rotation piece on a great team.

You just lost all credibility by saying he will surpass Hayward.

His offensive game is limited. And 3-and-D guys usually shoot better than 35% on 3s. I could go on and on, but this point I think is obvious to everyone but you. And I think your mind is made up.

Some advanced metrics measure Covington's impact to be greater than Hayward's. Lock down perimeter D and knocking down 3s are hugely impactful. It is about impact. Not just who you think is the better player.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Hayward has improved every year if his career. This year was his best year. He also took a step up again in the playoffs. There is no proof that he has peaked. You also are basing all this off of 1 stat that is pretty weak.

You think RPM is weak?

There is less noise with that stat than PIE and PER and WINS from my understanding.

RPM so often matches the eye test.

It believes LeBron was the best player 3 out of the last 4 years. Recognizes deficiencies in players like Harden and matches the eye test with role players like Ingles and Covington.

It's the kind of stat that makes you realize the Timberwolves will always suck if KAT doesn't play defense.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You think RPM is weak?

There is less noise with that stat than PIE and PER and WINS from my understanding.

RPM so often matches the eye test.

It believes LeBron was the best player 3 out of the last 4 years. Recognizes deficiencies in players like Harden and matches the eye test with role players like Ingles and Covington.

It's the kind of stat that makes you realize the Timberwolves will always suck if KAT doesn't play defense.

It's fine, but it's 1 stat and does not tell the whole story. Hayward didn't peak a couple years ago, so if that stat is showing that it is not accurate.