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How did Exum look last night?

tleikheen said:
Exum has been in the Jazz locker room for along time ,longer than Mitchell ......to say Mitchell is going with the game plan and Exum isn't because Mitchell goes under the screen occasionally is OK but Exum is deviating from said gameplan if he goes under is BS.
In a close game it wasn't Exum causing Jazz to lose to a injury depleted Boston team ...I point my finger at a out coached Snyder for this Boston loss.
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Deep down you know it was Exum's fault that Rozier got hot ....
 
MDAV28 said:
Good work on this, very thorough. I think you're confusing not executing with mental lapses on defense. If Donovan gets caught up on a screen, that's different than Exum not playing the game plan and going under when he shouldn't because Donovan is still playing the game plan. Even so, absolutely the starters have a much longer leash than Exum, why wouldn't they?

Also not all bad passes are TOs. He forced the ball into bad cuts, post areas etc. that didn't make sense and also threw one or two off target behind or at the feet. I appreciate you going through possession by possession but I hold that he had a very bad first half save for a couple plays, but maybe I am holding a higher expectation.
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IAWTP.

Also, this shouldn’t be hey, “he had 2-3 bad plays and 2-3 good. So overall he wasn’t bad.” That’s bad. Our good plays need to far outweigh the bad. If Lamar makes a dumbass decision and play for every good one he makes, then I don’t want him here. We need better than that.
 
I have off for a week and a half and I will attempt to start tracking Lamar over the next four games and every little thing he does.
 
MDAV28 said:
Good work on this, very thorough. I think you're confusing not executing with mental lapses on defense. If Donovan gets caught up on a screen, that's different than Exum not playing the game plan and going under when he shouldn't because Donovan is still playing the game plan. Even so, absolutely the starters have a much longer leash than Exum, why wouldn't they?

Also not all bad passes are TOs. He forced the ball into bad cuts, post areas etc. that didn't make sense and also threw one or two off target behind or at the feet. I appreciate you going through possession by possession but I hold that he had a very bad first half save for a couple plays, but maybe I am holding a higher expectation.
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He did not force bad passes outside of the first one. That simply isn't true. He absolutely did not throw off target passes in the first stint. You are making that up. It's annoying that you just throw things like that out when I already did the work of watching for it and tried to add context to those plays as well. Favors fumbled the ball on a routine post up where he didn't shield the defender well. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pass and Favors got a TO (that was his only pass to a post up). Jerebko got the ball in the paint twice on routine passing plays to a cutter. He made a good decision to not continue driving on one because the defense was there, and on the other he had multiple options but threw up a crazy shot that Exum rebounded. Exum didn't get pulled for those plays anyway. He got pulled because Quin overreacted to a legitimate mistake that Exum made. A mistake that was not unique to him as I showed.

Your defensive assessment is just making excuses for your earlier opinions. I know the difference between mental errors and trouble getting through a screen. Mitchell lost focus briefly on a couple of his which is why he had to recover. You conveniently ignored Ingles going under a lot of screens on shooters in the same way Dante did. That weakens your argument that it was outside of the game plan or that Quin is being rational about how he applies his anger about alterations to the game plan. I'm certain if I watched the whole second half I would find plenty of other mistakes. I remember in the second half Rubio lost his man on a back cut at least once which is a mental mistake. I remember a couple times guys going under on screens and giving up open looks. There's obviously the last sequence. These things happen every game.

If you are just one of those guys who can't ever be wrong and will keep spinning things we should probably stop now.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
IAWTP.

Also, this shouldn’t be hey, “he had 2-3 bad plays and 2-3 good. So overall he wasn’t bad.” That’s bad. Our good plays need to far outweigh the bad. If Lamar makes a dumbass decision and play for every good one he makes, then I don’t want him here. We need better than that.
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I only commented on plays that were up in the air, or good because he was involved in a specific part of the play. He had a ton of defensive possessions where he played good defense. So happily Dante did live up to your standard even on the first stint. You can't make a great play every time. You can make the correct play which he did the vast majority of his possessions on offense and defense.

This also ignores his second stint where he made 3 or 4 really big plays that were key to the team having a lead going into the end of the game.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
I have off for a week and a half and I will attempt to start tracking Lamar over the next four games and every little thing he does.
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I welcome this. There's nothing worse than lazy BS analysis from memory. Our memories are known to be extremely unreliable. What you really need to do as well is watch other players very specifically. You'll most likely see that players tend to make mistakes somewhat often.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
I only commented on plays that were up in the air, or good because he was involved in a specific part of the play. He had a ton of defensive possessions where he played good defense. So happily Dante did live up to your standard even on the first stint. You can't make a great play every time. You can make the correct play which he did the vast majority of his possessions on offense and defense.

This also ignores his second stint where he made 3 or 4 really big plays that were key to the team having a lead going into the end of the game.
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I don’t need him to always make great plays but I certainly need him to avoid making boneheaded plays time and again, leaving me completely baffled.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
I don’t need him to always make great plays but I certainly need him to avoid making boneheaded plays time and again, leaving me completely baffled.
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Well he has already succeeded in that so far this season. And yet you keep trying to create some level of negative plays that aren't there with any more regularity than other players. It's the whole point of my posts about this topic and looking at the plays themselves. He's not making boneheaded plays time and again unless you are willing to say that every NBA player does that since they all continue to make occasional mistakes.

Seriously how many stupid TO's did our guys have last game? Joe, Ricky, Donovan, Rudy, Favs, Jerebko, Crowder were all doing stuff that Exum would get killed for. They've been doing it all season. Exum gets killed for one TO and passes that people feel weren't placed well enough by some imaginary standard that only seems to apply to him. It's not rational. It's emotional reaction and little to no introspection. There's a ton of pride and bad feelings on the line from arguments with other fans as well which I think fuels a good portion of it.

I'm just trying to treat Exum like any other player. He does make mistakes, but they aren't and haven't generally been out of the ordinary. It's the attention each one gets that has been out of the ordinary. The reaction to this last game was a great example of that, but sadly not unique at all.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
Well he has already succeeded in that so far this season. And yet you keep trying to create some level of negative plays that aren't there with any more regularity than other players. It's the whole point of my posts about this topic and looking at the plays themselves. He's not making boneheaded plays time and again unless you are willing to say that every NBA player does that since they all continue to make occasional mistakes.

Seriously how many stupid TO's did our guys have last game? Joe, Ricky, Donovan, Rudy, Favs, Jerebko, Crowder were all doing stuff that Exum would get killed for. They've been doing it all season. Exum gets killed for one TO and passes that people feel weren't placed well enough by some imaginary standard that only seems to apply to him. It's not rational. It's emotional reaction and little to no introspection. There's a ton of pride and bad feelings on the line from arguments with other fans as well which I think fuels a good portion of it.

I'm just trying to treat Exum like any other player. He does make mistakes, but they aren't and haven't generally been out of the ordinary. It's the attention each one gets that has been out of the ordinary. The reaction to this last game was a great example of that, but sadly not unique at all.
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Rudy’s gonna be the DPOY. Mitchell might be the ROY. Ingles may lead the league in 3 point percentage. When Lamar starts making a name for himself in the league like those guys have, then I’ll let him get a free pass. Until then, he’s a huge question mark who needs to prove himself. Making easily avoidable dumb plays doesn’t help his cause in doing so.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Rudy’s gonna be the DPOY. Mitchell might be the ROY. Ingles may lead the league in 3 point percentage. When Lamar starts making a name for himself in the league like those guys have, then I’ll let him get a free pass. Until then, he’s a huge question mark who needs to prove himself. Making easily avoidable dumb plays doesn’t help his cause in doing so.
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So you basically have no intelligent insight to add about this. Fair enough.
 
Quin's Murderface said:
He did not force bad passes outside of the first one. That simply isn't true. He absolutely did not throw off target passes in the first stint. You are making that up. It's annoying that you just throw things like that out when I already did the work of watching for it and tried to add context to those plays as well. Favors fumbled the ball on a routine post up where he didn't shield the defender well. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the pass and Favors got a TO (that was his only pass to a post up). Jerebko got the ball in the paint twice on routine passing plays to a cutter. He made a good decision to not continue driving on one because the defense was there, and on the other he had multiple options but threw up a crazy shot that Exum rebounded. Exum didn't get pulled for those plays anyway. He got pulled because Quin overreacted to a legitimate mistake that Exum made. A mistake that was not unique to him as I showed.

Your defensive assessment is just making excuses for your earlier opinions. I know the difference between mental errors and trouble getting through a screen. Mitchell lost focus briefly on a couple of his which is why he had to recover. You conveniently ignored Ingles going under a lot of screens on shooters in the same way Dante did. That weakens your argument that it was outside of the game plan or that Quin is being rational about how he applies his anger about alterations to the game plan. I'm certain if I watched the whole second half I would find plenty of other mistakes. I remember in the second half Rubio lost his man on a back cut at least once which is a mental mistake. I remember a couple times guys going under on screens and giving up open looks. There's obviously the last sequence. These things happen every game.

If you are just one of those guys who can't ever be wrong and will keep spinning things we should probably stop now.
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Just because you interpreted a play a certain way doesn't make my point any less valid guy.

The fact that you think passing to a post player that you are literally driving your defender INTO is an OK play is all we need to know from this conversation.

What's funny is I consider myself one of the biggest Exum homers.
 
MDAV28 said:
Just because you interpreted a play a certain way doesn't make my point any less valid guy.

The fact that you think passing to a post player that you are literally driving your defender INTO is an OK play is all we need to know from this conversation.

What's funny is I consider myself one of the biggest Exum homers.
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Exactly. Me too. I root for the kid so hard but he's a ****ing mess out there half the time.
 
MDAV28 said:
Just because you interpreted a play a certain way doesn't make my point any less valid guy.

The fact that you think passing to a post player that you are literally driving your defender INTO is an OK play is all we need to know from this conversation.

What's funny is I consider myself one of the biggest Exum homers.
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Edit: Damnit he did drive on the play lol. I didn't remember it but went back to check. I don't think it had anything to do with the TO (Favs just fumbled it), but I don't want to be inaccurate. Took out the original comment because it wasn't accurate.
 
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MDAV28 said:
Just because you interpreted a play a certain way doesn't make my point any less valid guy.

The fact that you think passing to a post player that you are literally driving your defender INTO is an OK play is all we need to know from this conversation.

What's funny is I consider myself one of the biggest Exum homers.
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Im not your guy, buddy.
 
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