If Boozer isn't worth $80 mil, who is?

[The Ghost of Blue Edwards]

I think the lack of names in this thread says it all.

A lot of posters on this board have some imaginary player they feel is worth the money, and others just have no clue about the economics of the NBA.

Not 1 single name so far, just a bunch of fantasies and mythical players...

List of players in the NBA I would give 80 million dollar contracts to:

Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudemire
Derrick Rose
Chris Kaman
Brandon Roy
Rajon Rondo
Pau Gasol

There may be some I'm forgetting, but really your entire argument is based on faulty logic. Boozer is worth more to a team that has the ability and willingness to pay that amount for him. There are many factors that affect a buyer's willingness to pay at any given price. Do we really need to go into detail about the the different factors affecting Utah and Chicago's willingness to pay for Boozer at the price of 80 million dollars? Plus, Boozer's deficiencies on defense have plauged Utah for the last 3 years. Paying this guy would be like paying someone to keep you ill.

 

[The Ghost of Blue Edwards]

Booz is probably worth 80 mil in this crazy market. But whether he is worth 80mil TO THE JAZZ is another issue altogether

Clearly this is just common sense. Why are we even discussing this? 16 mil a year to Boozer would have been an awful move by Utah. If he was going to make us a championship contender then do it, but he hasn't done that in the past and he wasn't going to in the future, so why tie up all of your finances for someone who's going to keep you just above average?

 

[7StraightIsGreat]

Salty, your thread is silly. Your question cannot be answered because this is more about Utah avoiding a bad contract and attempting to use the money that will be free'd up by to try and turn this team into a contender down the road and retain D-Will in the process.

I've already posted this in another thread, but with Millsap finally getting the chance to play starters minutes for a full season, there's a great chance his numbers are in the 16ppg and 10rpg ballpark. That's very similar to what Boozer can give Utah, so let me ask you this: What's the better decision for Utah? Pay Boozer $16+ million for 19ppg and 11rpg from Boozer or pay Paul Millsap around $6 million to give us what will probably be close to identicle production? Obviously, that choice is a no-brainer.

Utah doesn't simply have to replace Boozer with another $80 million Power Forward, so asking what other PF's out there are worth $80 million isn't really relevant. Perhaps Utah finds a decent PF to back-up Millsap and ends up using the bulk of the saved Boozer cash to bring in an extremely dynamic SF, SG or C in 2011 to help bolster the roster and push Utah closer to contention.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I just posted something similar in another thread about Booz and Nets without reading this thread first. 2 out of about 4 or so teams with CAP room (Bulls and Nets) think Booz is worth 5 years 80 mil. That alone should make people think about the decision our FO just made. What I am mostly concerned though is that our FO was dumb enough to only extend Deron for 3 years, instead of 5 (like OKC extended Durant). That means in 2 years Deron will be asking, who is the talent next to him and whether it makes sense to stay. With 20 and 10 guy just walking away for nothing in return and Jazz unlikely getting top 3 pick in the draft any time soon with Deron on the roster, who is that star talent next to DWill? Millsap is the closest guy we have to another star, and he is yet to produce at Boozer's level. After that, we have no one worth mentioning. Just good solid guys, and no star power. I am really concerned with the decision not to match Booz. Yes, 80 mil is a lot of money, but 20 and 10 guys are also pretty rare, and you have a star PG who is threatening to leave if he does not get good talent around him. I didn't realize Booz gave the Jazz a chance to match, but if he did, we might have just made a pretty big mistake.

You do realize the Jazz offered Deron the max but DERON chose to sign for only 3 years.

As for Boozer, teams are panicking. Everyone cleared space to get in on the Deron, Lebron, Wade sweepstakes. But there were too many slots for too few players. So when you have Miami lock up Wade and Bosh, and NY lock up Amare (and probably Lee), all of a sudden you have Chicago and New Jersey fighting over the rest. I still think NJ has a shot at Lebron. We'll see tomorrow. So that meant Chicago ABSOLUTELY had to sign either Boozer or Lee.

Carlos is a great offfensive player. But he's not worth near MAX money, especially to the Jazz. Sign Carlos and the Jazz would either be paying $32M for him this season, or they'd have to hope KOC could magically dump AK without taking back any salary in return. That ain't gonna happen: 1) What team will be $17M under the cap; 2) Even if there were a team, you'd have to really sweeten the pot for them to pay the remaining $8M in AK's salary after the deadline. I'm guessing it would cost Hayward or the Memphis pick + cash.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Yeah. Even Rudy Gay just got MAX. That brings up another question: how can Memphis be so dumb to give away Gasol for nothing to get CAP room, and then just spend it all on Gay. This just makes no sense at all.

Seriously man, there is no logic there. They gave away gasol to save cap space, and a couple years later signed Rudy Gay to the max. Ridiculous.

I think if AK's sorry *** was'nt on this team the Jazz would have paid Booz. I hope they atleast make AK work more next season to earn a half of his pay
I think Booz is worth 80 mil over 5 yrs in this market. Just look at all those ridiculous contracts for Amare or Joe. He just isnt worth 80 mil to the Jazz RIGHT NOW. And the Jazz have to blame themselves for getting into this situation in the first place

I think that's it right there. The Jazz don't have any money because AK is making the max. But if AK was making the mid level Boozer would have been extended before his contract even expired.

All the people saying it's a no brainer to let him walk for nothing have no clue what they're talking about. Either the Jazz will pay someone that kind of money in the near future, or they will end up getting sold and moving. Small market teams have to win to survive.

And if we end up paying someone that kind of money- who will we get? Boozer seems like a bargain at that price when you look at all the other players everyone says they would rather have for the money.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Why do we need to pay near MAX money for a PF? Millsap can adequately man the position for $8M.

If the Jazz do pay $16M for a PF, it better be for a 4 who can also EFFECTIVELY play the five. I know, I know, Booz sometimes played center. Seriously, though, he could barely match up against most 4's on the defensive end.

IMO, AK had nothing to do with this decision. Jazz FO decided to let Boozer go 2 seasons ago. They didn't expect him back. Didn't really want him back. But he opted back in. Letting Booz walk means the Jazz can trade AK's expring contract for anyone, at any amount up to $17M. They don't need to dump salary. I'd gladly take a player like Haywood at $10M + a decent 6th man + a draft pick from a team wanting to dump salary. Those kind of deals will be available at the deadline. Book it.

 

[richgates]

All the people saying it's a no brainer to let him walk for nothing have no clue what they're talking about. Either the Jazz will pay someone that kind of money in the near future, or they will end up getting sold and moving. Small market teams have to win to survive.

And if we end up paying someone that kind of money- who will we get? Boozer seems like a bargain at that price when you look at all the other players everyone says they would rather have for the money.

Everyone likes to be an armchair GM, but it seems that the Jazz FO and a majority of the fans on the forum agree that while losing Boozer hurts the Jazz in some respects, it was not a wise move to match from a long term perspective. Ultimately a player's value is what a team is willing to pay, and Boozer is not worth $80 million to the Jazz, period. If you account for the number of games Boozer missed due to injury over his time with the Jazz it would be like paying him $20 million a year.

 

[SaltyDawg]

List of players in the NBA I would give 80 million dollar contracts to:

Deron Williams
Chris Paul
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Kevin Durant
Carmelo Anthony
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
Chris Bosh
Amare Stoudemire
Derrick Rose
Chris Kaman
Brandon Roy
Rajon Rondo
Pau Gasol

There may be some I'm forgetting, but really your entire argument is based on faulty logic. Boozer is worth more to a team that has the ability and willingness to pay that amount for him. There are many factors that affect a buyer's willingness to pay at any given price. Do we really need to go into detail about the the different factors affecting Utah and Chicago's willingness to pay for Boozer at the price of 80 million dollars? Plus, Boozer's deficiencies on defense have plauged Utah for the last 3 years. Paying this guy would be like paying someone to keep you ill.

None of those players on your list would sign for only $80 mil. Again, the only exceptions are the guys coming off the rookie contracts because they have a lower max. And most (or all) of them get extended by their current team before they ever become a free agent. And even if they do become a free agent, they are restricted anyway and get matched by their current team.

Salty, your thread is silly. Your question cannot be answered because this is more about Utah avoiding a bad contract and attempting to use the money that will be free'd up by to try and turn this team into a contender down the road and retain D-Will in the process.

I've already posted this in another thread, but with Millsap finally getting the chance to play starters minutes for a full season, there's a great chance his numbers are in the 16ppg and 10rpg ballpark. That's very similar to what Boozer can give Utah, so let me ask you this: What's the better decision for Utah? Pay Boozer $16+ million for 19ppg and 11rpg from Boozer or pay Paul Millsap around $6 million to give us what will probably be close to identicle production? Obviously, that choice is a no-brainer.

Utah doesn't simply have to replace Boozer with another $80 million Power Forward, so asking what other PF's out there are worth $80 million isn't really relevant. Perhaps Utah finds a decent PF to back-up Millsap and ends up using the bulk of the saved Boozer cash to bring in an extremely dynamic SF, SG or C in 2011 to help bolster the roster and push Utah closer to contention.

So what does utah do with that $80 mil in your plan? Spend it on a backup wing player? I need names. If Utah is going to contend, they will need a second star to compliment D-Will. Who will they get for $80 mil? You seem to have a nice plan to keep the Jazz around .500 with a low payroll. D-Will won't stand for that.

...Carlos is a great offfensive player. But he's not worth near MAX money, especially to the Jazz...

$80 mil is not near max money. Again, Joe Johnson just signed for $120 mil...

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

Everyone likes to be an armchair GM, but it seems that the Jazz FO and a majority of the fans on the forum agree that while losing Boozer hurts the Jazz in some respects, it was not a wise move to match from a long term perspective. Ultimately a player's value is what a team is willing to pay, and Boozer is not worth $80 million to the Jazz, period. If you account for the number of games Boozer missed due to injury over his time with the Jazz it would be like paying him $20 million a year.

Well if they paid him 14M next year (close to what Chicago is) they would be about 5 million into the Luxury tax. So it would be like 19M just for Boozer, and no pretty much rule out Wes & KK too.

 

[SaltyDawg]

Why do we need to pay near MAX money for a PF?

$80 mil is not near max money. Stoudemire signed for $100 mil. Joe Johnson signed for $120 mil.

 

[The Ghost of Blue Edwards]

What are you talking about? You asked who is worth 80 million dollars, not who would sign for 80 million dollars. And I'm confused as hell. The Jazz do not have 80 million dollars to spend, so what is the point of this?

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

$80 mil is not near max money. Stoudemire signed for $100 mil. Joe Johnson signed for $120 mil.

It is partly based on how much they made the previous year. I don't even the Jazz could have given Booze 120M

 

[vslice02]

A lot of posters on this board have some imaginary player they feel is worth the money, and others just have no clue about the economics of the NBA.

Not 1 single name so far, just a bunch of fantasies and mythical players...

Agree 100%. Alot of wishes for that Gasol-stopper or a PF who's indestructible and never misses a game. While Boozer isn't worth $80 million, the truth is there's barely 10 players in the league who are.
The Jazz won't be a better team this year or next year because of it, but they may be 3, 4, and 5 years from now. Let's just hope we still have an all-star PG at that time.

 

[Borat]

You do realize the Jazz offered Deron the max but DERON chose to sign for only 3 years.

Yes, I know KOC tried. But why did the Jazz accept Deron's counter of only signing for 3 years? We held all the cards. Deron says no to 5 years, we don't extend him, he plays for a year, and we have his rights. And there is no way he would say no. A guy coming out of the rookie contract does not say now to 5 year MAX deal. DWill is good, but he is no Lebron James. He can't just say I want 3 years after a rookie deal, and get it like James did, when Jazz hold all the cards. Well apparently he could, I am just saying perhaps Jazz should have been a bit more firm. This reminds me of our negotiations with AK47. Jazz did not think AK was worth the MAX. Jazz held all the cards, team option, AK being restricted. And we still ended up giving him MAX, even though back then I (and Salty also) kept saying just wait a year and then just match any offer if AK bulks. When you have all the cards, you need to come out on top and get what you want. That's the art of making deals.

As for Boozer, teams are panicking. Everyone cleared space to get in on the Deron, Lebron, Wade sweepstakes. But there were too many slots for too few players. So when you have Miami lock up Wade and Bosh, and NY lock up Amare (and probably Lee), all of a sudden you have Chicago and New Jersey fighting over the rest. I still think NJ has a shot at Lebron. We'll see tomorrow. So that meant Chicago ABSOLUTELY had to sign either Boozer or Lee.

You are correct about Bulls, no question about it. They just dumped 17th pick, Tyrus Thomas, and Hinrich for nothing just to clear CAP, and after missing out on everyone had to save face. But it's not just Bulls though. Nets also thought Booz was worth 80 mil.

Carlos is a great offfensive player. But he's not worth near MAX money, especially to the Jazz. Sign Carlos and the Jazz would either be paying $32M for him this season, or they'd have to hope KOC could magically dump AK without taking back any salary in return. That ain't gonna happen: 1) What team will be $17M under the cap; 2) Even if there were a team, you'd have to really sweeten the pot for them to pay the remaining $8M in AK's salary after the deadline. I'm guessing it would cost Hayward or the Memphis pick + cash.

I don't know if he is worth 80 mil or not. 2 out of a hand full of teams with CAP thought he is. We also need some talent to try to keep DWill in 2 years. Besides, which 28 year old guys who get 20 and 10 signed for a lot less?

 

[The Ghost of Blue Edwards]

Agree 100%. Alot of wishes for that Gasol-stopper or a PF who's indestructible and never misses a game. While Boozer isn't worth $80 million, the truth is there's barely 10 players in the league who are.
The Jazz won't be a better team this year or next year because of it, but they may be 3, 4, and 5 years from now. Let's just hope we still have an all-star PG at that time.

You would honestly enjoy getting stomped on in the 1st or 2nd round for the next 3 years? I'd rather lose 60 games and have hope for the future then get stuck in Seattle Sonic purgatory.

 

[Ben10]

I just posted something similar in another thread about Booz and Nets without reading this thread first. 2 out of about 4 or so teams with CAP room (Bulls and Nets) think Booz is worth 5 years 80 mil.. What I am mostly concerned though is that our FO was dumb enough to only extend Deron for 3 years, instead of 5 (like OKC extended Durant). That means in 2 years Deron will be asking, who is the talent next to him and whether it makes sense to stay. .

Is Boozer worth 5 years $80 million to those clubs with cap space. Yes, he is. Is he worth it to the Jazz and the huge lux tax payment that comes with him. No. This is still a buisness.

The part about Deron is just poor research on your part. The Jazz tried with everything they had to Sign him to the full 5 years. DERON wouldn't do it. Opting to only sign for 3 years to see if the Jazz could stay competitive. Just like Lebron, Wade, and Bosh did to there teams. So don't be blaming that on the Jazz FO.

Yes, I know KOC tried. But why did the Jazz accept Deron's counter of only signing for 3 years? We held all the cards. Deron says no to 5 years, we don't extend him, he plays for a year, and we have his rights. And there is no way he would say no. A guy coming out of the rookie contract does not say now to 5 year MAX deal. DWill is good, but he is no Lebron James. He can't just say I want 3 years after a rookie deal, and get it like James did, when Jazz hold all the cards. Well apparently he could, I am just saying perhaps Jazz should have been a bit more firm. This reminds me of our negotiations with AK47. Jazz did not think AK was worth the MAX. Jazz held all the cards, team option, AK being restricted. And we still ended up giving him MAX, even though back then I (and Salty also) kept saying just wait a year and then just match any offer if AK bulks. When you have all the cards, you need to come out on top and get what you want. That's the art of making deals.

So he won't sign for more. The Jazz options were to take the 3 years he wanted or to let him walk at the end of the year. Or signing him for just as much because thats what he would have demanded from the team signing him as a restricted FA. Hmmmm. I'll give him what he wants. So Maybe he wants to keep playing for us after his contracts are up.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Still waiting for a name...

Who do you think is or will be worth an $80 mil contract- not counting players on their rookie contracts or just barely coming off the rookie contract (due to the lower max)?

Players worth $80mm to the Jazz:
Garnett a few years ago
Pau Gasol
Dwight Howard
Maybe Brandon Roy in a year or two
Maybe Paul Pierce a few years ago
Maybe Ray Allen his last year or two with the Sonics
Dirk Nowitzki
Tim Duncan a few years ago
Maybe Chris Bosh

We signed Boozer for $68mm 5 years ago, and he exceeded expectations when he played hard. I agree with you that $80mm isn't too much for him. The issue is that he doesn't always play hard. One year he missed 1/3 of the season only to say he was healthy a day or two after the season ended.

Boozer at $80mm certainly isn't worse than AK at $70 million.

 

[SaltyDawg]

What are you talking about? You asked who is worth 80 million dollars, not who would sign for 80 million dollars. And I'm confused as hell. The Jazz do not have 80 million dollars to spend, so what is the point of this?

Who signs for $80 mil and who is worth $80 mil is pretty much the same thing. I can sit here and say I think Lebron is worth the mid level and kobe is worth the minimum. But we both know they aren't signing for less than the max, so they wouldn't represent good players that are worth the mid level or minimum or whatever. My point is, if Boozer isn't worth the mid level- then who is? and no, Lebron, Kobe, Dwight Howard, etc, are not good examples because they are all making way more than $80 mil.

It is partly based on how much they made the previous year. I don't even the Jazz could have given Booze 120M

It's based on the number of years in the league (I think). I know it can also be based on what you made the previous year because players get raises every year. But it doesn't change the fact- all the players being touted as being worth Boozer's $80 mil are all making way more than Boozer's $80 mil.

If you guys want a Stoudemire then you need to be talking abotu $100 mil players, not $80 mil players. Boozer is an $80 mil player that just gave the Jazz a chance to match his offer. A lot of people on this board seem to think it was a no brainer to let him walk at that price. So I'm curious who they think we could get for that price.

 

[Stifle Tower]

20 and 10. 20 and 10. Technically, Carlos did not average 20-10 last season. He didn't average 20-10 the season before, either.
And in the Jazz offense, Carlos SHOULD get 20-10. Heck, I think Millsap could average 18 and 9, or pretty darn close.

Yes, I know $16M ain't MAX money. $20M is MAX money. So, I revise my statement. Why pay a PF damn near MAX money (80% of it) when you have a very good PF making half that. And history has shown that there is generally a huge decline after 30. Atlanta is going to regret paying Johnson $119M. Jazz might regret Boozer leaving. Maybe he puts up monster numbers in Chicago. But Miller simply could not take a $96M chance that the next 6 years of Carlos would mirror the previous six.

 

[Ben10]

Boozer at $80mm certainly isn't worse than AK at $70 million.

Which is the crutch of the whole situation. If we didn't have the AK for $70 million the Boozer for $80 million might just be worth it. Of corse we would need him to be Karl Malone when it comes to injuries and production in those last 2 years to make it that way.