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I've never been so scared in my life

bigb said:
It's okay. It's a valid point. But in my mind, it reinforces the importance of safety and training.
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I know this is a sensitive time, and I wouldn't even ask if you weren't discussing this with others, but shouldn't you be waiting to hear more facts on this case (after the investigation is further along) before deciding how this either reinforces or changes what you already believed?
 
NAOS said:
I know this is a sensitive time, and I wouldn't even ask if you weren't discussing this with others, but shouldn't you be waiting to hear more facts on this case (after the investigation is further along) before deciding how this either reinforces or changes what you already believed?
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I like to think of myself as an open person. I'm always open to changing my opinions, even about this. We'll see what the future holds.
 
bigb said:
It's okay. It's a valid point. But in my mind, it reinforces the importance of safety and training.
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Good response

bigb said:
Just got briefed by the police. Apparently, the kids own parents were at the school checking on him because they were concerned about him. His own dad was the one to take him down.
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Wow, that's crazy
 
Glad it all turned out okay. What a scary thing to go through. Hope your daughter will be able to process it okay.
 
Scary stuff. My sister lives in Bountiful but her kids go to the next school over. Glad everything is okay, but man it's a scary world out there.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Also wouldn't safety and training just make sociopathic children who bring guns to school more deadly?

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I don't see these kids that way. I feel a lot of empathy for this kid. For every kid that takes a gun to school I bet there are a million more that suffer in similar ways. It may manifest itself through self harm, suicide, drug use, dropping out just to escape, etc but I don't think we can continue to think that there is something wrong with these kids. Honestly I think what this kid did was a perfectly natural reaction. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are at least 10 more boys in that school that have thought about doing the same thing. There are probably at least 100 kids in that school using drugs and alcohol to cope and many more exhibiting other self harming behaviors(everything from cutting themselves to anorexia). Forgetting about the shooters for a second and just looking at everything else it seems clear to me that the problem is systemic not individual bad kids.
 
♪alt13 said:
I don't see these kids that way. I feel a lot of empathy for this kid. For every kid that takes a gun to school I bet there are a million more that suffer in similar ways. It may manifest itself through self harm, suicide, drug use, dropping out just to escape, etc but I don't think we can continue to think that there is something wrong with these kids. Honestly I think what this kid did was a perfectly natural reaction. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are at least 10 more boys in that school that have thought about doing the same thing. There are probably at least 100 kids in that school using drugs and alcohol to cope and many more exhibiting other self harming behaviors(everything from cutting themselves to anorexia). Forgetting about the shooters for a second and just looking at everything else it seems clear to me that the problem is systemic not individual bad kids.
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I think it depends on the situation. That Sandy Hook shooter, for example, was very probably a sociopath. But I agree that most likely aren't.

But, what is the systemic problem you're talking about? What do you think is going on?
 
Siro said:
I think it depends on the situation. That Sandy Hook shooter, for example, was very probably a sociopath. But I agree that most likely aren't.

But, what is the systemic problem you're talking about? What do you think is going on?
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For starters I don't think we can ignore their biology. I think a lot of it is a natural biological reaction to putting a bunch of teenagers in the same building. While it's a normal practice now it is neither natural nor is it normal over the course of human history. You take a person going through profound biological changes and put them in the most stressful social situation you possibly can surrounded by pheromones 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Then you ask them to concentrate and learn and if they don't they are a disappointment to their parents.
 
♪alt13 said:
For starters I don't think we can ignore their biology. I think a lot of it is a natural biological reaction to putting a bunch of teenagers in the same building. While it's a normal practice now it is neither natural nor is it normal over the course of human history. You take a person going through profound biological changes and put them in the most stressful social situation you possibly can surrounded by pheromones 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Then you ask them to concentrate and learn and if they don't they are a disappointment to their parents.
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Mass shooting is specially a problem in the United States (and a relatively recent one at that). You can't blame it on the modern schooling system since it has been ubiquitous since the industrial revolution, and has become the global standard the past century or so.

I think the problem goes deeper, and it has to do with the loss of community that technology and development brings about. This is exacerbated in North European cultures, like that of the United States, due to the inherently individualistic and productivity oriented outlook. Mentally vulnerable individuals suffer in their isolated bubbles, and end up breaking down, and sometimes lashing out.

I recommend you give the book Tribe: on Homecoming and Belonging a look. It tackles the question of why many people, specially men, specially in developed countries, and specially in the United States, miss war, and often find it difficult to readjust in modern society. The book often reaches in its explanations, but that is expected since it's written by a journalist and not a sociologist. The thesis it advances for the astronomical rates of PTSD for US war vets, even those who never saw combat, applies to problems like mass shootings and other extreme anti-social behavior. It's a good quick read.
 
♪alt13 said:
I don't see these kids that way. I feel a lot of empathy for this kid. For every kid that takes a gun to school I bet there are a million more that suffer in similar ways. It may manifest itself through self harm, suicide, drug use, dropping out just to escape, etc but I don't think we can continue to think that there is something wrong with these kids. Honestly I think what this kid did was a perfectly natural reaction. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are at least 10 more boys in that school that have thought about doing the same thing. There are probably at least 100 kids in that school using drugs and alcohol to cope and many more exhibiting other self harming behaviors(everything from cutting themselves to anorexia). Forgetting about the shooters for a second and just looking at everything else it seems clear to me that the problem is systemic not individual bad kids.
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Yea, I feel empathy for him too and hope he gets help.

Sent from my A0001 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Siro said:
Mass shooting is specially a problem in the United States (and a relatively recent one at that). You can't blame it on the modern schooling system since it has been ubiquitous since the industrial revolution, and has become the global standard the past century or so.

I think the problem goes deeper, and it has to do with the loss of community that technology and development brings about. This is exacerbated in North European cultures, like that of the United States, due to the inherently individualistic and productivity oriented outlook. Mentally vulnerable individuals suffer in their isolated bubbles, and end up breaking down, and sometimes lashing out.

I recommend you give the book Tribe: on Homecoming and Belonging a look. It tackles the question of why many people, specially men, specially in developed countries, and specially in the United States, miss war, and often find it difficult to readjust in modern society. The book often reaches in its explanations, but that is expected since it's written by a journalist and not a sociologist. The thesis it advances for the astronomical rates of PTSD for US war vets, even those who never saw combat, applies to problems like mass shootings and other extreme anti-social behavior. It's a good quick read.
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I was not blaming our school system for school shootings. I was saying that I think our system does a lot of psychological harm. That it isn't just one crazy kid here or there. That the problem is greater than just school shootings. I agree with your second paragraph and would simply point out that our schooling system is part(perhaps the most important) of the society you describe in the second paragraph. You make the argument yourself. We have replaced that community with a school system that will be replaced by a workplace when you age. As far as being isolated these kids aren't alone they're lonely. They are surrounded by people that are busy establishing their own position in the pecking order and stepping on others is often how you do that. Jr. high is a hyper intense version of our society that is filled with the people that are least equipped to deal with it.
 
♪alt13 said:
For starters I don't think we can ignore their biology. I think a lot of it is a natural biological reaction to putting a bunch of teenagers in the same building. While it's a normal practice now it is neither natural nor is it normal over the course of human history. You take a person going through profound biological changes and put them in the most stressful social situation you possibly can surrounded by pheromones 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Then you ask them to concentrate and learn and if they don't they are a disappointment to their parents.
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Seems like you are taking an issue that is in the extreme minority and acting as if it is an issue that effects the vast majority of children. How many instances of a kid shooting up their own school can you list?
 
Srsly imagine your workplace. Now imagine that everyone there is going through puberty, you have weekly tests of your knowledge, you have to take your work home, you can't quit, you don't get paid, and you produce nothing. That's Jr high.
 
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