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I've never been so scared in my life

I have been thinking about this a bit today, and the reaction that we have now vs the reaction that we had 20 years ago.

When I was in 7th grade (20 years ago) I got on the bus one morning, and it was super quiet on the bus, even though it was completely full. I asked my friend that I sat next to what was going on, and his response was "Mathias is strapped." I had no idea what that meant, so he told me that he had a gun. The kid with the gun was a ninth grader who was already affiliated with gangs, and we all knew there was a rival gang member at the school waiting for him. The fight had been brewing for weeks.

We arrived at the school, and we saw this kid Don Manusina, a HUGE polynesian kid, waiting kind of close to the bus stop. It was like 7;45 AM, and we all gathered to watch was about to go down. Don had a bat, Mathias had a gun, but Don didn't know about the gun. I saw the handgun as we were getting off the bus. Somehow with all these kids, all we could think about was watching a fight. I don't even think anyone notified a teacher. It got to the point of these two wrestling and rolling around on the ground, and Mathias ending up with the baseball bat, and beating Don's head in. I remember blood running out of his ear. I don't know why the gun was not used, as the scene was plenty brutal, and was frankly pretty damn terrifying. There were at least a couple hundred kids around that morning.

I remember the teachers and the school police officer yelling at us to get to class, while they picked up the gun and the bat, and restrained the boys. I don't remember hearing anything on the news, or having my parents notified, and we certainly didn't miss out on school that day, in fact we probably were not even late for class because it all happened so fast.

The situation from today is not exactly the same, but the reaction was so different.
 
bigb said:
After we got home and spent some time together, my daughter was doing okay (relatively) and I had something I really needed to take care of at work. I asked her if she was okay and she told me to go back to work (she knows how busy I've been the last couple weeks). Work had always been very therapeutic for me. It allows me to clear my head and think through things. So, I've had a chance to think through these comments and my feelings. The conclusion I came to is the same it's been. I firmly believe that if guns (with the necessary training, etc.) were more available/accessible to faculty and such at schools, these ******** scenarios wouldn't play out to the extent they do. Imagine how many fewer lives could have been lost at Columbine or Sandy Hook if a handful of teachers/staff were carrying weapons? I'm pretty sure we can all agree that if someone with bad intentions wants a gun, they will find it. If there are more "good guys" with the ability/tools to protect us, it will help. I go back to the responsibility of the gun owner.
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2. Problems with this.

1. There is no such thing as a good guy. Thats movie stuff. A teacher could have been a good guy for years and years. Then their kid gets cancer and dies which causes marital problems so their spouse leaves them. Now we have a teacher at school with a gun who is depressed and mad and finally snaps one day. I don't like that scenario.

2. Now kids (many with no training or knowledge of guns) are in closer proximity to guns way more often and adults can make mistakes too and allow a child access to their gun even if accidentally.
 
More and more violence in schools. I went to school one year in HS at Mountain View in Orem.
I heard there was a stabbing there a few weeks back.
 
fishonjazz said:
2. Problems with this.

1. There is no such thing as a good guy. Thats movie stuff. A teacher could have been a good guy for years and years. Then their kid gets cancer and dies which causes marital problems so their spouse leaves them. Now we have a teacher at school with a gun who is depressed and mad and finally snaps one day. I don't like that scenario.

2. Now kids (many with no training or knowledge of guns) are in closer proximity to guns way more often and adults can make mistakes too and allow a child access to their gun even if accidentally.
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I disagree with your premise that there are no good guys. There are always good guys. I can't imagine living in a world where I didn't believe there are good guys.
Your other point is valid. But is it any different than our current situation? Anybody who wants to do harm with a gun has access to them almost immediately. Other than said teacher just absolutely snapping, pulling out the weapon, and finding targets (a very very rare scenario), nothing changes. Maybe the teacher has to provide a locked safe in the classroom to keep the weapon in during school hours or something like that? If I were a teacher, I would agree to that.
 
bigb said:
I disagree with your premise that there are no good guys. There are always good guys. I can't imagine living in a world where I didn't believe there are good guys.
Your other point is valid. But is it any different than our current situation? Anybody who wants to do harm with a gun has access to them almost immediately. Other than said teacher just absolutely snapping, pulling out the weapon, and finding targets (a very very rare scenario), nothing changes. Maybe the teacher has to provide a locked safe in the classroom to keep the weapon in during school hours or something like that? If I were a teacher, I would agree to that.
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My point was that good guys don't always stay good guys. And we don't have a way of telling who the good guys are. Someone can act like a good guy (on the outside) and be bad guys on the inside. Then we encourage them to bring a gun to their workplace with children all around.

I'm certain that there are murderers, psychopaths, serial killers, rapists, etc who at some point had many people who thought they were good people.

I never really got into that show Dexter but from what I could gather he was a serial killer who was a perfectly functioning member of society who many people thought was a "good guy" (I could be wrong about that since I only saw like one episode and just heard my father in law talking about the show)

And I realize that I'm talking about a fictional tv show so disregard that part of my post if you want but take the rest of my post into consideration.
 
fishonjazz said:
My point was that good guys don't always stay good guys. And we don't have a way of telling who the good guys are. Someone can act like a good guy (on the outside) and be bad guys on the inside. Then we encourage them to bring a gun to their workplace with children all around.

I'm certain that there are murderers, psychopaths, serial killers, rapists, etc who at some point had many people who thought they were good people.

I never really got into that show Dexter but from what I could gather he was a serial killer who was a perfectly functioning member of society who many people thought was a "good guy" (I could be wrong about that since I only saw like one episode and just heard my father in law talking about the show)

And I realize that I'm talking about a fictional tv show so disregard that part of my post if you want but take the rest of my post into consideration.
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How is that any different than any other person/profession? A mall Santa could be a bad guy. A day care worker.
 
bigb said:
How is that any different than any other person/profession? A mall Santa could be a bad guy. A day care worker.
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Exactly. I don't want mall santas and day care workers having guns on them when they are with my daughter.
 
bigb said:
That's fair. I can't fault you for that.
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Maybe if there were extremely stringent background checks and psychological testing done to the teachers followed by a bunch of security/safety/crisis control types of training for the teachers then I could get behind it.

Most average people (like a teacher) don't have the proper training and are not prepared for a situation in which they have to shoot a kid with a gun and there is a chance that an untrained and unprepared teacher with a gun could make things worse and escalate/increase the damage done.

Take what happened at your daughters school for example. iirc no one got shot. Maybe if the teachers had guns then maybe a teacher shoots the kid with the gun. Or maybe the teacher shoots at the kid with the gun but misses and hits a different kid and kid with the gun realizes they are being shot at and starts shooting at other people now. Then kids are running and screaming everywhere after hearing the gunshots and the other teachers grabbing their guns to come save the day but there are a bunch of kids running at them from all angles and the teachers scared and don't know who the shooter is or where the shooter is.

Now you have a bunch of underpaid, highly stressed, unprepared, untrained, scared teachers with loaded weapons in an extremely chaotic situation around a bunch of children. Not always a good thing.

Add in the fact that there is a lot of turnover in the teaching field so you have lots of new teachers quite often. (I read an article the other day that due to low pay, and high stress of teaching that the average teacher only lasts 7 years)

I'm sure there would be times when teachers carrying guns would save lives and prevent some tragedies. Hell, maybe they would even prevent more than they would cause or escalate and maybe it's a good idea. I have no clue.

But it has the potential to make things worse.
 
bigb said:
After we got home and spent some time together, my daughter was doing okay (relatively) and I had something I really needed to take care of at work. I asked her if she was okay and she told me to go back to work (she knows how busy I've been the last couple weeks). Work had always been very therapeutic for me. It allows me to clear my head and think through things. So, I've had a chance to think through these comments and my feelings. The conclusion I came to is the same it's been. I firmly believe that if guns (with the necessary training, etc.) were more available/accessible to faculty and such at schools, these ******** scenarios wouldn't play out to the extent they do. Imagine how many fewer lives could have been lost at Columbine or Sandy Hook if a handful of teachers/staff were carrying weapons? I'm pretty sure we can all agree that if someone with bad intentions wants a gun, they will find it. If there are more "good guys" with the ability/tools to protect us, it will help. I go back to the responsibility of the gun owner.
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So you reaffirmed your established beliefs after some more time to think... but without any additional facts in this case?

Fortunately, most people don't have to face this issue head-on, but I wish those who did would really inquire into the specific issues of the case, and then let those head-on issues rework their opinions. At least slightly. Otherwise all society hears is this broad/general/abstract garble. In other words, the kind of stuff you seem to be regurgitating even though you have the opportunity (as awful at it is) to do something else.

Our society has an epistemological problem. We scan through information looking for how it confirms our ideology, rather than learning (i.e. unworking previous beliefs/ideologies).


Maybe I'm projecting too much into this. I will open up and say that it's precisely this issue that has me most worked up (politically speaking), so maybe I'm seeing my own frustration. I want to feel differently about your process, so let me ask you another question: while you were spending this extra time thinking at work, what were you thinking with? In other words, what bits of info/data/whatever felt like FACTS to you? What were the things that recemented your opinion?
 
Siro said:
Ya, I agree with all of this. I just wanted to point out that it is a larger societal problem, and not just school related. I believe you're right that the cultural factors that lead to this problem are most apparent in schools, for the reasons you listed.

You're spot on about people being lonely despite being surrounded by people. That is exactly the loss of community that I was referring to.

To make things worse, I don't think there are any comprehensive solutions in the current system. You can make things better thru gun control and what have you. But the source of the problem is technology; the well from which all "progress" gushes thru. Community is just the price we pay for the technological empowerment of the individual.
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how do you define technology?

I'm resisting the same counterargument that you gave salt13: You can't blame it on technology and development since they have been ubiquitous since the industrial revolution...
 
NAOS said:
So you reaffirmed your established beliefs after some more time to think... but without any additional facts in this case?

Fortunately, most people don't have to face this issue head-on, but I wish those who did would really inquire into the specific issues of the case, and then let those head-on issues rework their opinions. At least slightly. Otherwise all society hears is this broad/general/abstract garble. In other words, the kind of stuff you seem to be regurgitating even though you have the opportunity (as awful at it is) to do something else.

Our society has an epistemological problem. We scan through information looking for how it confirms our ideology, rather than learning (i.e. unworking previous beliefs/ideologies).


Maybe I'm projecting too much into this. I will open up and say that it's precisely this issue that has me most worked up (politically speaking), so maybe I'm seeing my own frustration. I want to feel differently about your process, so let me ask you another question: while you were spending this extra time thinking at work, what were you thinking with? In other words, what bits of info/data/whatever felt like FACTS to you? What were the things that recemented your opinion?
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The facts that I did or didn't have are irrelevant, IMO. My daughter just experienced a shot being fired by a student at her school. I ecperienced the utter and complete terror of having been alerted that an active shooter was at my daughter's school. As it turns out, that report was slightly overblown, but for about ten minutes, I thought a kid or kids had free run at my daughter's school with a gun. After the initial and automatic worry about my daughter, my next thoughts immediately turned to "how long until someone else with a gun can stop this?" My mind keeps going back to the bad guys get guns to do bag things. If we can get more good guys to counteract that, we're better off. But I also feel that more safety issues need to be addressed. We (gun owners) need to be better at being safe with our guns.
The news agencies are reporting that this kids parents noticed something was different with his behavior this morning. They followed up on it. They noticed the two guns were missing and went to the school. They were two classrooms away when he fired the shot. I commend them for being that attentive and I'm extremely grateful they followed through with their concerns. I don't know what their gun safety procedures are at home. I singly feel a 15 year old kid should not have ready access to them. They should be in a safe and he should not know where the key is or what the combination is. That's what I follow at home. The kid obviously knew enough about the guns to take a shotgun and a 9mm with a box of ammo for each and how to load and shoot the shotgun. [MENTION=840]fishonjazz[/MENTION] has brought up some valid points and counterarguments to my thoughts. This whole situation has me thinking more about it.
 
bigb said:
The facts that I did or didn't have are irrelevant, IMO. My daughter just experienced a shot being fired by a student at her school. I ecperienced the utter and complete terror of having been alerted that an active shooter was at my daughter's school. As it turns out, that report was slightly overblown, but for about ten minutes, I thought a kid or kids had free run at my daughter's school with a gun. After the initial and automatic worry about my daughter, my next thoughts immediately turned to "how long until someone else with a gun can stop this?" My mind keeps going back to the bad guys get guns to do bag things. If we can get more good guys to counteract that, we're better off. But I also feel that more safety issues need to be addressed. We (gun owners) need to be better at being safe with our guns.
The news agencies are reporting that this kids parents noticed something was different with his behavior this morning. They followed up on it. They noticed the two guns were missing and went to the school. They were two classrooms away when he fired the shot. I commend them for being that attentive and I'm extremely grateful they followed through with their concerns. I don't know what their gun safety procedures are at home. I singly feel a 15 year old kid should not have ready access to them. They should be in a safe and he should not know where the key is or what the combination is. That's what I follow at home. The kid obviously knew enough about the guns to take a shotgun and a 9mm with a box of ammo for each and how to load and shoot the shotgun. [MENTION=840]fishonjazz[/MENTION] has brought up some valid points and counterarguments to my thoughts. This whole situation has me thinking more about it.
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I think we're misunderstanding each other. I asked about what facts do you feel you had? as you thought this through. Based on the post I've quoted, it seems like you felt as if you had a few.

In my opinion (and this is jusssst my opinion), it seems like you don't have very many for someone with a direct opportunity to add to our collective thinking on this issue. You don't even know who this person is yet, his background with firearms, the way he gained access to the firearms, etc. It seems very hasty to draw conclusions without as many of these details as possible.

If I'm wrong for expecting more from someone in your position -- and for being disappointed that I'm hearing a repetition of a partisan take on this issue after so little fact-gathering -- please tell me how/why.


EDIT: I hope you got my PM as soon as I heard about this. I'd have been out-of-my-mind if I were in your shoes. I'd also still be feeling jolted/nuts about it. I'm sorry you and your family have had to go through this.
 
♪alt13 said:
Forget about the shooters for a second

Let's talk about destructive behaviors as a whole. When we do it seems that they are commonplace. Now think of all the kids that feel the same way but are able to hold it together even if just barely. Why do so many kids feel so isolated, worthless, imprisoned, and hopeless? Is that how they are supposed to feel? You tell me, What's going on?
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No, kids should not feel that way. Mental health issues are real and should be dealt with. Even if they somehow relate to our transition from hunter/gatherer society as you suggest, though, I do not see going back to those roots somehow as a reasonable alternative.

Self confidence, happiness, self worth, and all other positive evaluations (as well as all negative evaluations) exist only in the mind of the individual. We have ample proof that people can experience these positive emotions regardless of circumstance, regardless of economics, regardless of anything. The same is true for experiencing negative emotions. I could show you many examples of incredibly happy people who have nothing, and incredibly unhappy people who have everything. Getting onto the right side of this equation is an important and very personal journey. Some people make it very easy for themselves to accomplish this, and some people make it very difficult (or even impossible) for themselves. IMO people are much more likely to succeed if they take personal responsibility for their own happiness than if they accept the thinking that there is something outside of their control (systemic or otherwise) that needs to change in order for them to feel good about themselves.
 
NAOS said:
I think we're misunderstanding each other. I asked about what facts do you feel you had? as you thought this through. Based on the post I've quoted, it seems like you felt as if you had a few.

In my opinion (and this is jusssst my opinion), it seems like you don't have very many for someone with a direct opportunity to add to our collective thinking on this issue. You don't even know who this person is yet, his background with firearms, the way he gained access to the firearms, etc. It seems very hasty to draw conclusions without as many of these details as possible.

If I'm wrong for expecting more from someone in your position -- and for being disappointed that I'm hearing a repetition of a partisan take on this issue after so little fact-gathering -- please tell me how/why.


EDIT: I hope you got my PM as soon as I heard about this. I'd have been out-of-my-mind if I were in your shoes. I'd also still be feeling jolted/nuts about it. I'm sorry you and your family have had to go through this.
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I haven't received a PM. But no worries.

As for the other questions:
I did have a few of the facts that have since come out. Basically, the story on KSL last night/this morning is what I already knew.
Given the way things worked out, I'm not sure how many people would have had a major change of opinions. If it had been worse, maybe my thoughts and opinions would have changed. They still might as I learn more about what happened.
 
So I would have expected to hear about a school shooting on national news. I know it has been covered a little on national news but not much. I think it's a remarkable story about concerned parents of a troubled teen. Parents who were aware that their child was abnormally upset and then noticed that some guns were missing. Can you imagine being those parents, thinking that your child was going to be the next national villain, shooting up their school and killing other people's children? They were rushing to the school to save the life of their own child, the other children, teachers, and ultimately protecting their own self from the devastation that would follow if their child went through with it. I can only imagine that the father had no concern for his own safety as he subdued his son. I'm sure at some level he realized that if he was unsuccessful his life would be meaningless anyway and his son would most certainly have died in the process.

Again, this is one of the most unique school shooting stories I've ever heard and the national media seems uninterested. I guess you need a body count to sell the story and here there was none. But to me that is what makes this such and interesting and compelling story.

Does this go down as an "only in Utah" type situation, where a parent is aware enough to realize something is up and instead of just calling 9-11 or just crossing their fingers they go to the school and prevent a tragedy?
 
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