Jackpotting Around Podcast: Episode 37 - Keandre Ashley of Hoop Intellect

[KqWIN]

Do we care that Baylor had a tougher schedule than Texas? Is that worth mentioning every time there’s a slight criticism of VJ? Or is that something only reserved for Tre? Nobody does this for other SEC guys even lol.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Do we care that Baylor had a tougher schedule than Texas? Is that worth mentioning every time there’s a slight criticism of VJ? Or is that something only reserved for Tre? Nobody does this for other SEC guys even lol.

VJ was the number one option unlike Kon so if someone wanted to compare those two I’d definitely bring it up as evidence he could be more of a primary since he did it with a tougher schedule.

 

[Elizah Huge]

This is interesting. I keep seeing people say he cant get to the rim. Then I see this video showing him getting to the rim with ease over and over again. Using explosiveness and speed to get past dudes and right to the rim. He appears to have the speed, explosiveness, quickness to get to the rim according to this video. Sucks at finishing at the rim in this video though. Hopefully that is something he can improve upon if the jazz draft him. Nice to know he has the physical ability at least.

Im a jazz fan. I hope that whoever the jazz draft improves on the warts they have (they all have warts). I might be different than most fans in this regard. I get the feeling that people who dont like Kon are hoping that if the jazz draft him they will be proven right that he is too slow, short (length), and unathletic to be any good and people who dont like tre will be proven right that he cant play defense and cant get to trim just like they said and people who dont like Ace want him to be too arrogant and dumb to ever be any good. Some people like to bump old posts showing how smart they were and how dumb everyone else was. Not really my thing.

I just want the dude the jazz draft to be amazing. The Jazz are the ones who will make the decision of who to draft. I hope they draft the best player in the draft and Tre, Kon, Ace, VJ, Fears or whoever makes Flagg an afterthought in this draft.

The funny thing is Kon is 6th on my big board and I’d bet Tre is like 6th on @Handlogten's Heros board. We’re literally arguing this much over guys 5/6 lmao.

If we draft my 6th guy at 5th I’m not going to be upset and I will be Kon’s #1 fan going forward.

HH is going hard at Tre though he’s very passionate.

 

[framer]

No I’m telling you the guy that struggled to get tot he rim and finish in college and as a high school senior has not shown he can get tot the rim and finish lol. This ain’t a track meet it’s basketball… we have actual useable functional information here. Jebus.

You have like 34 games from an 18 year old. That type of sample is useful for telling you what a player CAN do rather than what they absolutely CANNOT do. His handle is OK, he can get above the rim pretty easily. You can pull out individual plays from the year where he does exactly what you want him to do in driving to the rim.

Honestly, I think his step back and side to side shifts and shooting off the bounce look pretty damn elite. It is easy to trust them in his early career if they cannot be stopped. There is no physical limitation that would keep him from getting to the rim other than reps as far as I can see. I think I would rather he put his immediate work into defense though if the Jazz draft him.

 

[KqWIN]

VJ was the number one option unlike Kon so if someone wanted to compare those two I’d definitely bring it up as evidence he could be more of a primary since he did it with a tougher schedule.

I just don’t think playing in the SEC (and being on a bad team) is the ultimate trump card and can’t understand why it would be for only one player. I hardly ever see it brought for other SEC players or players who played tougher schedules. If we were talking about VJ/Fears/Anyone against Kon nobody would mention their tough conference.

And just a thought—being the number one guy and scoring a lot is not unrelated to being on a bad team that allows him that opportunity.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I just don’t think playing in the SEC (and being on a bad team) is the ultimate trump card and can’t understand why it would be for only one player. I hardly ever see it brought for other SEC players or players who played tougher schedules. If we were talking about VJ/Fears/Anyone against Kon nobody would mention their tough conference.

And just a thought—being the number one guy and scoring a lot is not unrelated to being on a bad team that allows him that opportunity.

I mean if you think him being the #1 option averaging 20 PPG as a freshman on good efficiency in a tough conference isn’t worth anything that’s cool. It means something to me.

It would be different if he was super inefficient. This dude was efficient on all types of shots he took.

Off the dribble, off screens, isolation, post-ups, finishing, etc. All while being the main focal point of the defense.

 

[framer]

Honestly though, my dream is that we traded Lauri to get the #3 pick outright and drafted Tre AND Kon. My thing is that I think I could name a lot of the high level shooters in College drafted in the lottery who didn't pan out. I cannot even begin to name all the folks who needed their "shot to come around" who busted out of the lottery. You don't go broke drafting high level shooting, especially if they have positional size and a bit of defense.

 

[KqWIN]

I mean if you think him being the #1 option averaging 20 PPG as a freshman on good efficiency in a tough conference isn’t worth anything that’s cool. It means something to me.

It would be different if he was super inefficient. This dude was efficient on all types of shots he took.

Off the dribble, off screens, isolation, post-ups, finishing, etc. All while being the main focal point of the defense.

Why must you put words in my mouth? I never said it wasn’t good or worth anything. I said I find it strange that he is the only player whose conference seems to matter despite there being several other players in that conference and players who played tougher schedules.

It’s fine if you think the tough competition matters. But it should also matter for those playing the same or better competition.

I also just have a different perspective about efficiency. Efficiency is not just how you shoot relative to the shots you take. His overall efficiency was not bad, but not amazing either. It points to one of the biggest concerns I have with him which is the very tough shot diet. Elite shooting on a tough shot diet doesn’t necessarily produce great efficiency.

 

[Elizah Huge]

Why must you put words in my mouth? I never said it wasn’t good or worth anything. I said I find it strange that he is the only player whose conference seems to matter despite there being several other players in that conference and players who played tougher schedules.

It’s fine if you think the tough competition matters. But it should also matter for those playing the same or better competition.

I also just have a different perspective about efficiency. Efficiency is not just how you shoot relative to the shots you take. His overall efficiency was not bad, but not amazing either. It points to one of the biggest concerns I have with him which is the very tough shot diet. Elite shooting on a tough shot diet doesn’t necessarily produce great efficiency.

I think it’s relative to the Tre vs Kon argument. I’d do the same thing if someone wanted to bring up Kon vs VJ.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

HH is going hard at Tre though he’s very passionate.

This part is wildly inaccurate… and it’s literally the opposite.

 

[KqWIN]

I think it’s relative to the Tre vs Kon argument. I’d do the same thing if someone wanted to bring up Kon vs VJ.

Tre is the only player where it gets brought up over and over in arguments. Even in arguments against other SEC players I see it brought up why he should be the only one who gets credit for playing against a hard schedule.

 

[HermanG]

Why must you put words in my mouth? I never said it wasn’t good or worth anything. I said I find it strange that he is the only player whose conference seems to matter despite there being several other players in that conference and players who played tougher schedules.

It’s fine if you think the tough competition matters. But it should also matter for those playing the same or better competition.

I also just have a different perspective about efficiency. Efficiency is not just how you shoot relative to the shots you take. His overall efficiency was not bad, but not amazing either. It points to one of the biggest concerns I have with him which is the very tough shot diet. Elite shooting on a tough shot diet doesn’t necessarily produce great efficiency.

Isnt a tough shot diet sort of what one should expect from a primary option scorer who carries bulk of his offense against good competition?

 

[fishonjazz]

Do we care that Baylor had a tougher schedule than Texas? Is that worth mentioning every time there’s a slight criticism of VJ? Or is that something only reserved for Tre? Nobody does this for other SEC guys even lol.

I think you should bring up Baylor's tough schedule when VJ is criticized.

Also think it's a good idea to bring up that Kon played on and contributed to one of the best college basketball teams.

I'm all for pumping up dudes we might draft and bringing up reasons for optimism.

Probably hard to find a post from me being very critical of VJ or Kon or Kas even if they are dudes lower on my list of guys I want.

 

[KqWIN]

Isnt a tough shot diet sort of what one should expect from a primary option scorer who carries bulk of his offense against good competition?

Not necessarily and definitely not this tough. Again, Tre is not the only one in this situation.

 

[fishonjazz]

You have like 34 games from an 18 year old. That type of sample is useful for telling you what a player CAN do rather than what they absolutely CANNOT do. His handle is OK, he can get above the rim pretty easily. You can pull out individual plays from the year where he does exactly what you want him to do in driving to the rim.

Honestly, I think his step back and side to side shifts and shooting off the bounce look pretty damn elite. It is easy to trust them in his early career if they cannot be stopped. There is no physical limitation that would keep him from getting to the rim other than reps as far as I can see. I think I would rather he put his immediate work into defense though if the Jazz draft him.

One nice thing is that if he truly is an elite shooter at the NBA level but doesn't get to the rim or line much then we have evidence of guys like that being Hall of famers.

Even a guy like buddy hield, which would be a disappointment for most of us with this pick, averaged 20.7 ppg on 46%/43%/89% shooting splits in his 3rd season in the league and will probably end up playing about 15 years or so.

Elite shooting can go really far in the NBA even if there isn't a ton of supplemental skills with it. Klay, ray, Reggie come to mind. Hell Steph's elite shooting is like 80% of why he is one of the greatest players in the history of the league.

If we draft Kon I will look to his elite shooting as my reason for optimism even if he lacks some other things.

I'm a sucker for elite shooters.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You have like 34 games from an 18 year old. That type of sample is useful for telling you what a player CAN do rather than what they absolutely CANNOT do. His handle is OK, he can get above the rim pretty easily. You can pull out individual plays from the year where he does exactly what you want him to do in driving to the rim.

Honestly, I think his step back and side to side shifts and shooting off the bounce look pretty damn elite. It is easy to trust them in his early career if they cannot be stopped. There is no physical limitation that would keep him from getting to the rim other than reps as far as I can see. I think I would rather he put his immediate work into defense though if the Jazz draft him.

Look all we have is all we have lol. But what we have over his HS and college career is he didn't do it enough or well. I have everyone telling me the stuff Kon does at the rim well... won't work. I am not saying he can't get better... I am saying be consistent. If Kon can figure out a way to make it work by using his two footed stuff and strength to get to the rim and finish better than Tre at this point (which is undeniable based on what we have) then maybe the athletic testing is a little overrated compared to... IDK playing actual basketball.

The case for Tre (which I have made consistently on X and other places) is the off the dribble shooting. He is clearly better at that then Kon. Does Kon improve in that area? Almost surely... just like Tre will improve at his rim finishing (hopefully).

They are both very good prospects. I'm happy to have either. I've talked about both of their strengths and weaknesses based on what they have showed. The draft can be random... lets see who improves on what going forward.

 

[fishonjazz]

Tre is the only player where it gets brought up over and over in arguments. Even in arguments against other SEC players I see it brought up why he should be the only one who gets credit for playing against a hard schedule.

You seem a bit hung up on this. I have barely noticed it lol.

 

[KqWIN]

Look all we have is all we have lol. But what we have over his HS and college career is he didn't do it enough or well. I have everyone telling me the stuff Kon does at the rim well... won't work. I am not saying he can't get better... I am saying be consistent. If Kon can figure out a way to make it work by using his two footed stuff and strength to get to the rim and finish better than Tre at this point (which is undeniable based on what we have) then maybe the athletic testing is a little overrated compared to... IDK playing actual basketball.

The case for Tre (which I have made consistently on X and other places) is the off the dribble shooting. He is clearly better at that then Kon. Does Kon improve in that area? Almost surely... just like Tre will improve at his rim finishing (hopefully).

They are both very good prospects. I'm happy to have either. I've talked about both of their strengths and weaknesses based on what they have showed. The draft can be random... lets see who improves on what going forward.

The simple argument against the whole rim thing would be demonstrating how/when it has happened. If guys do get to the rim and FT line more in the NBA, it should be easy to point to a bunch of examples.

 

[Elizah Huge]

This part is wildly inaccurate… and it’s literally the opposite.

You literally just posted this:

The case for Tre (which I have made consistently on X and other places) is the off the dribble shooting. He is clearly better at that then Kon. Does Kon improve in that area? Almost surely... just like Tre will improve at his rim finishing (hopefully).

Yeah, Kon will SURELY improve and Tre will HOPEFULLY improve.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The simple argument against the whole rim thing would be demonstrating how/when it has happened. If guys do get to the rim and FT line more in the NBA, it should be easy to point to a bunch of examples.

My belief is that its likely easier for a guy who shoots the piss out of the ball to figure out off the dribble shooting than it is for a guy who doesn't get to the rim and struggles to finish to get better at that. I don't think either are impossible of course. I think both Kon and Tre have similar ceilings and the winner of this great debate will be the guy that actually does hit his ceiling (if either do).

My issue the whole times is simply folks dismissing Kon as not even in the conversation... its 100% a conversation... sorry.