mongoose01
Well-Known Member
Hayward is a much better and more versatile defender. Similar playoff records. Better rebounder. Doesn’t need goggles.
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Jazz are committed to Donovan as cornerstone according to Woj
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Hayward is a much better and more versatile defender. Similar playoff records. Better rebounder. Doesn’t need goggles.
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Honest question, has Mitchell lost a step already? I seem to remember him driving and dunking on people a lot more is first two years than the last two. If he’s already losing some of his athleticism are we sure we want to build around the guy?
Maybe it is him realizing he doesn't need to do that and take those risks for 2pts when he can make a layup? I don't really know. But he doesn't go for those highlight reel dunks like he did his first two seasons, that is for sure.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
Maravich is a legend of the game.
Williams was the best PG in the game for a window there and made the conference finals.
Rudy has never been considered the best C in the game. Not at any time. Mutumbo was adored in his day and Eaton in the prior era. Those guys are appreciated but never celebrated.
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LoPo
Well-Known Member
There is no debate between Hayward and Mitchell because Mitchell is a much better player and has had a much better Jazz career than Hayward ever had.
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LoPo
Well-Known Member
Eastern Orthodoxy
Active Member
Are we using passive voice constructions referring to undefined, anonymous groups who consider players to judge the historic value of players now?
To be sure, Rudy has never been first-team all-NBA, but neither was Deron Williams, so I'm not sure when he was the best PG in the league. Deron was an all-star three times and second team all-NBA twice. Gobert's already equaled that (making second team once and third team twice, and the same number of all-star selections). But Rudy won defensive player of the year three times, tied for second-most ever. He'll be in the Hall of Fame. Deron Williams never will. Deron played for the Jazz for five years and fell off a cliff, statistically, after eight. Rudy was on the Jazz for nine years and doesn't look like he's slowing down. Rudy's certainly the more valuable player historically speaking.
The way Hayward left bumps him below Mitchell. But Mitchell could ruin that part as well. They just had different careers on very different situations. Hayward was pretty much on tanking teams except for his first and last years here. His only real year of us trying to win he lead the team to a good upset in the playoffs. Mitchell had a similar year/series but also had really bad failures as the main guy on the favored team. Stats wise Mitchell is better until you factor in defense. Hayward was quiet and not really a team leader, although I dont know that Mitchell is doing much better in those regards.
But as of right now if I made a ranking Mitchell would be ahead of Hayward. But definitely behind in no order Stockton, Malone, Gobert, Pete, and maybe Okur. He is probably tied with Boozer and Deron. But he could move up on the list if he sticks around and the team actually goes somewhere.
Pistol Pete is too hard to rank sometimes though. He never got the Jazz into the playoffs, not once. He never even got us to a winning record. He was a showman and a legend, but not for winning. But he did kind of put the Jazz on the map back then and really was an entertaining player to watch for people. He put up crazy numbers although its hard to compare numbers from that era to know and he also lost a lot of games, but didnt have much help. Maybe I bump him below Mitchell now that I think about it.
The way Hayward leaving situation bumps him below Mitchell. But Mitchell could ruin that part as well. They just had different careers on very different situations. Hayward was pretty much on tanking teams except for his first and last years here. His only real year of us trying to win he lead the team to a good upset in the playoffs. Mitchell had a similar year/series but also had really bad failures as the main guy on the favored team. Stats wise Mitchell is better until you factor in defense. Hayward was quiet and not really a team leader, although I dont know that Mitchell is doing much better in those regards.
But as of right now if I made a ranking Mitchell would be ahead of Hayward. But definitely behind in no order Stockton, Malone, Gobert, and maybe Okur. He is probably tied with Boozer and Deron. But he could move up on the list if he sticks around and the team actually goes somewhere.
You also need to define what you are ranking by. Just winning? Liked the most by fans? Best player? Or things?
AK shouldnt be in the top 10.
jope
Well-Known Member
I’m squarely in the Donovan support group, but have my top 5 at
Malone (HOF)
Stockton (HOF)
Gobert (Future HOF)
Dantley (HOF)
Williams (on the cusp, but not quite HOF)
Mitchell (?)
shorter career == less accolades…
Donovan has solid potential to move upward in these rankings with a few more years of accomplishments.
Malone (HOF)
Stockton (HOF)
Gobert (Future HOF)
Dantley (HOF)
Williams (on the cusp, but not quite HOF)
Mitchell (?)
shorter career == less accolades…
Donovan has solid potential to move upward in these rankings with a few more years of accomplishments.
AK was a legit defensive great, spent a lot more time here than Don, actually led the team for awhile (‘04 was a spectacular job from AK). The things he did on the court never get rewarded with Allstar nods, but he played at that level for a reasonable stretch. Was always a better player than Boozer and the FO really screwed the pooch trying to force him to the 3.
He’s not unsurpassable, but yeah, I have him pretty easily over Don for now. He’s my current #5.
He’s not unsurpassable, but yeah, I have him pretty easily over Don for now. He’s my current #5.
TheStormofWar
Well-Known Member
AK's natural position was a hybrid 3/4 and played a fair amount of time (if not most) at the 3 even before Boozer. Dude would have been fantastic in this era now that I think about it. He was a defensive monster.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
AK47 needs to be in the top 5 just for the sheer amount of Rockette fan tears he generated for us. Remember when he drew this foul from Louis Scola in game 2 of the 2008 playoffs? Their fan base exploded. They were still talking about it even when Harden was kicking our ***.
AK47 baby! Fast forward to 1:15. Love it:
View: https://youtu.be/RhdqCPEOiYs
AK47 baby! Fast forward to 1:15. Love it:
View: https://youtu.be/RhdqCPEOiYs
LoPo
Well-Known Member
We could argue Deron vs Rudy all day long in terms of regular season accomplishments. I would actually give a slight nod to Rudy on that.
For the postseason, it's not even close. Deron was more impactful in the postseason.
At their peaks, I think Deron is more impactful overall. But you're right, it's very close.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
What does this mean?
LoPo
Well-Known Member
Rudy is by far the best player in the trade. However, we did add guys who have quality NBA experience. If the new coach is great at his job and better than Quin, it's conceivable that a deeper team coached better can achieve what we did last year.
The coach is the most important part of this offseason.
fishonjazz
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Contributor
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I would probably put mitchell ahead of AK but maybe not. Thats a tough one. Otherwise i think i agree with everything on your list.
Actually after thinking about it a bit more, i would probably drop malone down to 2 and put Burks #1
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