The trade winds are a'blowin'...

[Domino]

From certain angles, Will looks like Harvey Specter.

Yeah I just got done watching suits and I kept noticing how much they look alike I think it depends on the angle


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[Saint Cy of JFC]

H

From certain angles, Will looks like Harvey Specter.

He doesn't

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

DA know what he is doing. He makes Boston good, he makes Minny good, hopefully his next mission is to make the Jazz good !

 

[fishonjazz]

#1 As a "requirement" is not true. (See: 22 Warriors, 19 Raptors, 14 Spurs)
#2 most champions have the one to complement their star, not 2.
#3 depends on what "very good" means. I wouldn't say last year's Jeff Green was a very good rotation player, or Donte DeVicenzo in 22, or Grayson Allen, Dwight Howard etc.).

I think Steph and kawhi are top 5 players

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[Ferguson_Mellochill]

No. The goal is to win a championship. That’s the directive Smith gave to Ainge. That means things like trading your two All-Star players for a boatload of assets.

A championship requires:
1. A superstar player. (Top 5)
2. 1-2 All-Star level complements.
3. 6 very good rotation players.
4. Luck

Of the above, we only have #2 in place. We have the assets to trade for #1 when opportunity knocks. Until then, they’re solving #3 through the draft and value plays, which is exactly what they should be doing.

You can rage about the trees, but thankfully our front office is birds-eyeing the forest.

Normally, the championship goes to the team with the most unstoppable offensive player--e.g., Jokic, Giannis, Steph, Lebron, Dirk, etc.--but the rest of the pieces also need to be in place.

 

[My2Cents]

Somethings are more easily known. L

Sure, that's probly it...

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Was gonna start a thread on John Collins but decided it wasn't quite worth its own thread. Dude has played solid individually... well at least his stats look good (in particular 3 point percentage) but its really not working for the team on court. He has the worst on/off differential of anyone on the team.

The guy doesn't pass the ball well which I think hurts us more than other teams since we lack passing. His defense seems solid at times. His rebounding seems helpful. But what is going on with the guy? Maybe the on/off is fluky and he's played the most minutes of anyone on the team... its just kinda weird.

I also looked at what teams I think would trade for him and kinda was drawing a blank. So individually I'd say his value is higher but not sure he is movable for anything worthwhile. We can be patient with him but I just wonder what trades you think would be out there for him? If we want to make a splash in FA we kinda need to move him or Sexton so we have enough $$$ to renegotiate and sign Lauri.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Best Collins idea I could come up with that I think another team would go for is Collins for Clarke and Adams in Memphis. Both guys out for the year but maybe come back next year healthy.

 

[infection]

Was gonna start a thread on John Collins but decided it wasn't quite worth its own thread. Dude has played solid individually... well at least his stats look good (in particular 3 point percentage) but its really not working for the team on court. He has the worst on/off differential of anyone on the team.

The guy doesn't pass the ball well which I think hurts us more than other teams since we lack passing. His defense seems solid at times. His rebounding seems helpful. But what is going on with the guy? Maybe the on/off is fluky and he's played the most minutes of anyone on the team... its just kinda weird.

I also looked at what teams I think would trade for him and kinda was drawing a blank. So individually I'd say his value is higher but not sure he is movable for anything worthwhile. We can be patient with him but I just wonder what trades you think would be out there for him? If we want to make a splash in FA we kinda need to move him or Sexton so we have enough $$$ to renegotiate and sign Lauri.

We locked up our money for three years in a CD at 1%. Guaranteed return. Free money.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We locked up our money for three years in a CD at 1%. Guaranteed return. Free money.

I just don't know if there is something he is doing that makes it not work, but our first order of business when Jordan/Lauri are healthy should be seeing if Collins/Lauri/Kessler works. Thus far it has been a -21 per 100... which is real bad. It was only played when we had THT in the starting lineup and JC was missing everything.

Looking at the on/off stuff I think the Collins issue is we are so bad with him on defense when he is the center and we've been forced into more of that than we'd like. Kessler also played so bad most games to start the season that I don't think we got a fair look.

The on/off stuff was interesting. Key is really negative right now. Makes sense as he is a rookie and we've played him a lot without Lauri in the starting lineup. Dunn's defensive +- is big which makes sense since the guards are so bad on defense. He hurts the offense though. THT and Sexton are more positive than we'd likely think. Ochai also seems to be impacting defense. He has doubled his stocks per minute and increased rebounding. So is doing more. If he can shoot outside of dunks and corner threes we might be on to something.

 

[bigmike]

Was gonna start a thread on John Collins but decided it wasn't quite worth its own thread. Dude has played solid individually... well at least his stats look good (in particular 3 point percentage) but its really not working for the team on court. He has the worst on/off differential of anyone on the team.

The guy doesn't pass the ball well which I think hurts us more than other teams since we lack passing. His defense seems solid at times. His rebounding seems helpful. But what is going on with the guy? Maybe the on/off is fluky and he's played the most minutes of anyone on the team... its just kinda weird.

I also looked at what teams I think would trade for him and kinda was drawing a blank. So individually I'd say his value is higher but not sure he is movable for anything worthwhile. We can be patient with him but I just wonder what trades you think would be out there for him? If we want to make a splash in FA we kinda need to move him or Sexton so we have enough $$$ to renegotiate and sign Lauri.

Not enjoying the John Collins fit at all. If the collective team were better and he could be a rotational piece to impact winning, great. But I don't see where or how he is a long-term piece and he clearly does not fit our development timeline.

 

[infection]

I just don't know if there is something he is doing that makes it not work, but our first order of business when Jordan/Lauri are healthy should be seeing if Collins/Lauri/Kessler works. Thus far it has been a -21 per 100... which is real bad. It was only played when we had THT in the starting lineup and JC was missing everything.

Looking at the on/off stuff I think the Collins issue is we are so bad with him on defense when he is the center and we've been forced into more of that than we'd like. Kessler also played so bad most games to start the season that I don't think we got a fair look.

The on/off stuff was interesting. Key is really negative right now. Makes sense as he is a rookie and we've played him a lot without Lauri in the starting lineup. Dunn's defensive +- is big which makes sense since the guards are so bad on defense. He hurts the offense though. THT and Sexton are more positive than we'd likely think. Ochai also seems to be impacting defense. He has doubled his stocks per minute and increased rebounding. So is doing more. If he can shoot outside of dunks and corner threes we might be on to something.

Numerous things require no foresight. For instance:

1. THT isn’t good.
2. The Collins deal isn’t good.
And coming soon… 3. No amount of bargain makes a LaVine deal good.

 

[str8line]

Collins had his best game of the year vs. Portland. I think he likes it here.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Not enjoying the John Collins fit at all. If the collective team were better and he could be a rotational piece to impact winning, great. But I don't see where or how he is a long-term piece and he clearly does not fit our development timeline.

Collins' defense and rebounding are nice. The spot-up shooting seems to be working okay. But on a real contending team, he's likely a 3rd or 4th starter rather than a priority.

The main problem the Jazz are struggling with is their lack of on-ball creation and lack of ball movers. Clarkson and Keyonte are about the only two players in the rotation that both dribble and pass the ball. Everyone else--from Lauri, to Walker, to Ochai, to Collins--needs to be put in positions to score where they don't need to take more than one or two dribbles. (Sexton, THT and Fontecchio can create for themselves, but they're not really ball movers.) Then the problem with Clarkson and Keyonte is that they're below-average defenders who get blown by on the perimeter.

If the Jazz don't play Clarkson and Keyonte, the ball doesn't move on offense. If the Jazz do play Clarkson and Keyonte, then their defense is bottom-tier. When Kessler was out with his injury and the Jazz weren't playing a true center, this became pretty obvious. So now the Jazz have decided to consistently play one of Yurtseven or Kessler to shore up the interior defense when our guards get blown by.

Long story shortish -- Collins would look better on a team with better ball movement. His role should be like Aaron Gordon's on the Nuggets. He just doesn't have a guy like Jokic diming him and making him look good.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Numerous things require no foresight. For instance:

1. THT isn’t good.
2. The Collins deal isn’t good.
And coming soon… 3. No amount of bargain makes a LaVine deal good.

Yeah… 1+2=3?

I just don’t think there’s a big market for Collins and his value should be about as improved as it reasonably could have been expected. I just think since we are committed to Collins at this point we better make damn sure that Collins/Lauri/Walker works… when healthy we need that configuration on the court.

 

[fishonjazz]

Not enjoying the John Collins fit at all. If the collective team were better and he could be a rotational piece to impact winning, great. But I don't see where or how he is a long-term piece and he clearly does not fit our development timeline.

Fit is why almost everyone who didn't like the trade, didn't like the trade.
I didn't like the trade when it happened
Yet as I watch the games I really like Collins. Yet he doesn't fit still. It's weird

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[Handlogten's Heros]

Fit is why almost everyone who didn't like the trade, didn't like the trade.
I didn't like the trade when it happened
Yet as I watch the games I really like Collins. Yet he doesn't fit still. It's weird

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That’s what I’m saying… the math ain’t mathing.

 

[Douchebag K]

Collins would be great as a utility first big off the bench In a team with plenty of playmaking

 

[HermanG]

Collins' defense and rebounding are nice. The spot-up shooting seems to be working okay. But on a real contending team, he's likely a 3rd or 4th starter rather than a priority.

The main problem the Jazz are struggling with is their lack of on-ball creation and lack of ball movers. Clarkson and Keyonte are about the only two players in the rotation that both dribble and pass the ball. Everyone else--from Lauri, to Walker, to Ochai, to Collins--needs to be put in positions to score where they don't need to take more than one or two dribbles. (Sexton, THT and Fontecchio can create for themselves, but they're not really ball movers.) Then the problem with Clarkson and Keyonte is that they're below-average defenders who get blown by on the perimeter.

If the Jazz don't play Clarkson and Keyonte, the ball doesn't move on offense. If the Jazz do play Clarkson and Keyonte, then their defense is bottom-tier. When Kessler was out with his injury and the Jazz weren't playing a true center, this became pretty obvious. So now the Jazz have decided to consistently play one of Yurtseven or Kessler to shore up the interior defense when our guards get blown by.

Long story shortish -- Collins would look better on a team with better ball movement. His role should be like Aaron Gordon's on the Nuggets. He just doesn't have a guy like Jokic diming him and making him look good.

I think you hit most of the points well here.

Collins is being scapegoated a bit by guys who dont really have any arguments besides "he doesnt fit". However the fit is actually NOT the issue, but its the fact that with or without Collins we lacked guys who can create advantages for themselves or even more importantly, for others. Collins doesnt really make these issues significantly worse as he can generate points from his offensive rebounds or dribbling in from the perimeter or from the post and he does move around off-ball giving himself passing lanes and creating easy C&S opportunities.

His impact is positive offensively. His ratings dont fully reflect that but he has played more minutes against opposing starters than anyone on this team. On defense he has only been a negative because of Hardy trying to play him as the small ball 5 which he really cannot do. He doesnt have the length to protect the rim or to contest/bother taller players without leaving his feet. On perimeter and transition he is decent.

Our main two problems positionally have been guard and center play (Collins contributing to latter but that falls more on Hardy for not playing Yurt7 when Kessler was out). For the guards, if a rookie (who is playing at rookie efficiency and making rookie mistakes) wins the starting job around game 10 it tells a bit about the quality of play we got from the vets. However the biggest problem is that Kessler played really bad early on, and while we can chalk it on the injury it doesnt mean it didnt happen or that it didnt impact the team. I mean Kessler has -15.8 rating when playing with Lauri (which is Lauri's worst net rating by a margin of 8.7), and Lauri has an offensive rating of 110+ with literally everyone besides Walker, with whom the rating is 101.1. Walker on the other hand has an offensive rating of 105+ with exactly two players: KO (only 70 minutes) and Kris Dunn (only 40 minutes).

Collins negative ratings are more of a product of him playing a support role in a bad team where the guards play is poor on both ends and center play has been even more horrible. You can only blame him for not being the solution, but he isnt the problem either.

 

[Agent#00]

Collins' defense and rebounding are nice. The spot-up shooting seems to be working okay. But on a real contending team, he's likely a 3rd or 4th starter rather than a priority.

The main problem the Jazz are struggling with is their lack of on-ball creation and lack of ball movers. Clarkson and Keyonte are about the only two players in the rotation that both dribble and pass the ball. Everyone else--from Lauri, to Walker, to Ochai, to Collins--needs to be put in positions to score where they don't need to take more than one or two dribbles. (Sexton, THT and Fontecchio can create for themselves, but they're not really ball movers.) Then the problem with Clarkson and Keyonte is that they're below-average defenders who get blown by on the perimeter.

If the Jazz don't play Clarkson and Keyonte, the ball doesn't move on offense. If the Jazz do play Clarkson and Keyonte, then their defense is bottom-tier. When Kessler was out with his injury and the Jazz weren't playing a true center, this became pretty obvious. So now the Jazz have decided to consistently play one of Yurtseven or Kessler to shore up the interior defense when our guards get blown by.

Long story shortish -- Collins would look better on a team with better ball movement. His role should be like Aaron Gordon's on the Nuggets. He just doesn't have a guy like Jokic diming him and making him look good.

Hardy can explore yurt as a post up facilitator. Last game he did this and found sexton under the rim for easy 2 it was nice. We can’t always rely on guard play coz when they attempt more pass, there’s more turnovers. collins i think he’s a luxury we can do with or without. When he gets punished by bigger guys it’s torture. Like he shrinks. He’s consistent tho he can rebound