Trade deadline discussion

[LoPo]

Yeah but key was "after playing against him". They wouldn't have that chance here, and he would have been languishing in the G League most of the time, so we wouldn't know what we had until he was let go and went elsewhere.

I would like to believe we are smarter than that. I mean, we did groom Joe and Royce to be good role players. We have it in us to make it happen.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

Yeah but key was "after playing against him". They wouldn't have that chance here, and he would have been languishing in the G League most of the time, so we wouldn't know what we had until he was let go and went elsewhere.

Quin played Donovan quite a bit as a Rookie, and played Grayson Allen as a rookie too. Has a single young player left here and done anything besides Grayson Allen (who, again, Quin played as rookie)?

There are good reasons to knock Quin, but not playing the draft whiffs and G-League crud on the bottom of the roster isn't one of them.

The FO has failed Quin here. The FO should seriously let the beat writers draft for us. We'd have Desmond Bane and Herb Jones on the roster right now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Quin played Donovan quite a bit as a Rookie, and played Grayson Allen as a rookie too. Has a single young player left here and done anything besides Grayson Allen (who, again, Quin played as rookie)?

There are good reasons to knock Quin, but not playing the draft whiffs and G-League crud on the bottom of the roster isn't one of them.

The FO has failed Quin here. The FO should seriously let the beat writers draft for us. We'd have Desmond Bane and Herb Jones on the roster right now.

I won't lament picking Butler... I think he's an nba player and a great pick at that range. Where we messed up was trading #30 for the pick we used to get Butler and another second. The 4 year deal on whoever we picked was important... 2 years is almost impossible for guys to give you surplus value on the deal. Now that we haven't seen Butler for half of his rookie year it is improbable he becomes a player on his rookie deal. Just kinda some dumb cap maneuvering imo.

 

[LoPo]

I still want to see if this is possible. Seems like it works for all 3 parties.

Jazz get Collins and Smart

Boston gets Bogey and 2nd rounders from Atlanta

Hawks get Clarkson, Boston player (whoever they want from Richardson, Schroder, a few of the young players), a protected 1st from Boston and a protected 1st from Utah

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I still want to see if this is possible. Seems like it works for all 3 parties.

Jazz get Collins and Smart

Boston gets Bogey and 2nd rounders from Atlanta

Hawks get Clarkson, Boston player (whoever they want from Richardson, Schroder, a few of the young players), a protected 1st from Boston and a protected 1st from Utah

You dreaming. Collins is in the Ben Simmons discussions.... nothing we have that we will offer will move the needle for him.

 

[LoPo]

You dreaming. Collins is in the Ben Simmons discussions.... nothing we have that we will offer will move the needle for him.

NBA trade rumors: Kings, Hawks strongest Ben Simmons suitors for Sixers

The NBA trade rumors on the Ben Simmons front are making loud noises again. According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Sixers are...

clutchpoints.com

According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Philadelphia 76ers are willing to wait out a Simmons trade with Brooklyn Nets star James Harden on their mind. But in terms of inquiring with the Sixers about Simmons, the Nets are behind the Sacramento Kings and the Atlanta Hawks, per Charania.

For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic. The Athletic reported on Wednesday that the Kings do not plan to move De’Aaron Fox or Haliburton and want to build around them.

So the 76er's want Atlanta to send two 1st round picks AND Collins AND take Harris for Simmons.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The more I think about it... the more I don't care if they do a big move at the deadline. Feels like we would pay a premium to make it happen. I don't think Smart is available for just peanuts and I'm not willing to move Bogey for him.

I will do the following types of trades:

- The minor move that lands you a 10th man or something. Like a second rounder and Udoka for some guy on a minimum deal.
- A JC trade that nets either a player or an expiring contract. His streaky shooting is one thing... his defensive lapses are getting tougher to deal with. If you can work magic to turn JC into Smart then by all means do it.

Go into the offseason and make the big move... either Conley/Bogey/JC... and if you really feel like you are getting something awesome then do a Rudy or Don move. We are really two trades/moves away from doing something meaningful (could also backfire) and that will be tough to do in season. So unless you can make magic happen on a JC trade you are likely better off just playing it out and hoping to have JC raise his trade value. Joe's deal falls off the books and you might be able to make one more move to give yourself some cap relief.

It ain't happening this year... making a move using future assets or giving away necessary pieces feels like chasing good money after bad.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

NBA trade rumors: Kings, Hawks strongest Ben Simmons suitors for Sixers

The NBA trade rumors on the Ben Simmons front are making loud noises again. According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Sixers are...

clutchpoints.com

According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Philadelphia 76ers are willing to wait out a Simmons trade with Brooklyn Nets star James Harden on their mind. But in terms of inquiring with the Sixers about Simmons, the Nets are behind the Sacramento Kings and the Atlanta Hawks, per Charania.

For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic. The Athletic reported on Wednesday that the Kings do not plan to move De’Aaron Fox or Haliburton and want to build around them.

So the 76er's want Atlanta to send two 1st round picks AND Collins AND take Harris for Simmons.

I just don't see Atlanta moving Collins for JC and two firsts... plus whatever salary filler they get. Boston would likely do Bogey for Smart straight up... but they won't add a first.

Philly is also dreaming... everyday there is a ridiculous rumor with them. If they really had either the Sacramento or Detroit package that was rumored they should have taken it right away. They trying to trade a dollar for 17 quarters... you might get 5 or 6 quarters for a dollar. I really believe them when they say they will wait for Harden this summer.

 

[LoPo]

I just don't see Atlanta moving Collins for JC and two firsts... plus whatever salary filler they get. Boston would likely do Bogey for Smart straight up... but they won't add a first.

Philly is also dreaming... everyday there is a ridiculous rumor with them. If they really had either the Sacramento or Detroit package that was rumored they should have taken it right away. They trying to trade a dollar for 17 quarters... you might get 5 or 6 quarters for a dollar. I really believe them when they say they will wait for Harden this summer.

I agree - I don't think we should trade Bojan for Smart unless Boston sends substantially more or if it turns into a big deal like this.

The only reasons I see this having a glimmer of hope...

Boston seems ready to move from Smart
Atlanta and Collins both seem intent on separating
Atlanta is worried about future finances

Maybe Detroit and Atlanta switch Grant and Collins, but if that was possible, I think it would have happened already. I'm really interested to see what happens with Collins. I think he fits very well.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We are limping into a critical stretch of the season... its not unlucky per se... its just not lining up for us.

 

[LogGrad98]

NBA trade rumors: Kings, Hawks strongest Ben Simmons suitors for Sixers

The NBA trade rumors on the Ben Simmons front are making loud noises again. According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Sixers are...

clutchpoints.com

According to Shams Charania of The Athletic, the Philadelphia 76ers are willing to wait out a Simmons trade with Brooklyn Nets star James Harden on their mind. But in terms of inquiring with the Sixers about Simmons, the Nets are behind the Sacramento Kings and the Atlanta Hawks, per Charania.

For Simmons, the 76ers have asked the Kings for guard Tyrese Haliburton and multiple first-round picks, and asked for a package around John Collins and multiple first-round picks from the Hawks along with Atlanta taking on Tobias Harris, multiple sources tell The Athletic. The Athletic reported on Wednesday that the Kings do not plan to move De’Aaron Fox or Haliburton and want to build around them.

So the 76er's want Atlanta to send two 1st round picks AND Collins AND take Harris for Simmons.

It is funny how Harris went from being The **** to just plain **** in such a short time-frame. Now it is a punishment for other teams to have to take him on in order to get the privilege of trading for Simmons. Hilarious.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I agree - I don't think we should trade Bojan for Smart unless Boston sends substantially more or if it turns into a big deal like this.

The only reasons I see this having a glimmer of hope...

Boston seems ready to move from Smart
Atlanta and Collins both seem intent on separating
Atlanta is worried about future finances

Maybe Detroit and Atlanta switch Grant and Collins, but if that was possible, I think it would have happened already. I'm really interested to see what happens with Collins. I think he fits very well.

I'm not sure if Boston is ready to move Smart. I've listened to a couple pods with The Athletic people that cover the Celtics... they seem to think they wait until the offseason unless someone blows them away.

IDK I guess the argument could be made if you feel like this season is a lost cause (like I do) that maybe you trade Bogey for Smart because he likely has more future value and makes that pivot easier in the offseason. You then move away from Conley in the offseason and try a Smart, Donovan, Royce?, Player X signed in the offseason, and Rudy lineup. I'd really love to know what Ainge's view of this team is.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

We are limping into a critical stretch of the season... its not unlucky per se... its just not lining up for us.

The glass half full take is that they are going through the worst stretch possible and they can only play better. I think there is still some hope the team comes together in time for the playoffs. I do think they need to get another bench piece or two. (Yuta Watanabe of course)

 

[LogGrad98]

It makes zero sense for the Jazz to move Bogey right now. We would never get equal value. But that means this is exactly the kind of move the Jazz would make. They will trade him for cap relief, cash, some no-name guy with some one solid obscure defensive stat, and we will send out multiple picks to get it done. Then they will talk about how this guy adds new versatility where he has spent most of the season in the G-league or languishing on the end of some bench somewhere. The Jazz are obsessed with finding the diamond in the rough to the point they will throw away mounds of perfectly good rubies and sapphires and emeralds in the hope that next muddy rock might shine after years of polishing, only to find out years later they have been trying to polish a turd.

Then, of course, on to the next turd, because it might be that elusive diamond they have been searching that will justify getting so much turd under their nails from all this polishing.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

In my opinion, it makes a ton of sense to move Bogey, Ingles, and Conley if they can return positive value. Not because it helps us win a championship this year, but because they are aging and because I have lost faith in this group.

I still think we can build a contender around Don and Rudy, but everyone else I've lost faith in. I am thinking more with an eye to 2-3 years from now, so if you can turn Bogey into assets and a younger player like Smart that will fit the timeline of the new core to come, you do it. If we wait too long the only thing we can turn Bogey into is glue. I think we are already there with Joe.

Sorry to be negative. If you think this current iteration of the Jazz still has title chances, the only guys that we should be actively shopping are Ingles and Clarkson. If you can attach a 2nd Round pick to Ingles and turn it into Josh Richardson, you do it. If you can turn Clarkson into Marcus Smart, you do it. Anything more drastic than that at this point probably signals the FO has lost faith in this core and is trying to re-tool for a few years from now.

It's reasonable to think this core COULD win a title if the matchups shake out favorably, but it's also reasonable to think it's time to start the re-tool before it becomes a rebuild. Guess we'll have some insight soon on how Ainge sees things.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It makes zero sense for the Jazz to move Bogey right now. We would never get equal value. But that means this is exactly the kind of move the Jazz would make. They will trade him for cap relief, cash, some no-name guy with some one solid obscure defensive stat, and we will send out multiple picks to get it done. Then they will talk about how this guy adds new versatility where he has spent most of the season in the G-league or languishing on the end of some bench somewhere. The Jazz are obsessed with finding the diamond in the rough to the point they will throw away mounds of perfectly good rubies and sapphires and emeralds in the hope that next muddy rock might shine after years of polishing, only to find out years later they have been trying to polish a turd.

Then, of course, on to the next turd, because it might be that elusive diamond they have been searching that will justify getting so much turd under their nails from all this polishing.

Yeah, in general trading major pieces at the deadline is usually the wrong move.

The deadline is for moving deadweight that is actively hurting your team (Clarkson). Simply the subtraction of Clarkson will improve the team.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

If we had drafted Herb Jones, we might not be rushed to do anything right now.

He wouldn’t play, just like Butler

That's possible, but I think his leadership qualities and skills would have led to him having a bigger role than that.

If Donovan and Conley both publicly commented on how good Herb is after playing against him, I'm sure they would have pushed for him to play with them.

Those are all qualities Butler showed at LSU and in preseason and was not allowed to get experience by trial and error. I said it after a couple weeks, a rookie can’t get a rhythm playing two minutes a game, or two minutes a half or whatever it was.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

He wouldn’t play, just like Butler

Those are all qualities Butler showed at LSU and in preseason and was not allowed to get experience by trial and error. I said it after a couple weeks, a rookie can’t get a rhythm playing two minutes a game, or two minutes a half or whatever it was.

Yep, Jared Butler was regarded as one of the most NBA ready players in the class. He was regarded as a good defender, high IQ player, high intangibles, great shooter, clutch, 3 year college starter, etc. The only thing that prevented him from being a top 20 pick was medicals.

It's nothing short of shocking to me how little opportunity he has gotten in favor of Trent Forrest. And I love Trent Forrest more than almost anyone on this board as I think he has real backup PG potential.

He's been pretty mediocre in the G-League, but he's only played 7 games and Utah fields the least talented G-League team (by far, For Example: Jazz play Dwayne Wade's son 14 mpg and he couldn't even get minutes on his high school team his senior year. I also dont think they had single NBA call-up during the covid spike), so he doesnt have much help.

Herb Jones obviously better than I thought, but I see no guarantee that he would have played for Quin. I don't see a lot of consistency to Quin's thought process on who he plays and doesnt play. I'm sure there is something there to how he coaches and how he wants guys to respond to it, but it's not in anyway readable from my POV.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, in general trading major pieces at the deadline is usually the wrong move.

The deadline is for moving deadweight that is actively hurting your team (Clarkson). Simply the subtraction of Clarkson will improve the team.

Its just tough because to get the roster balance we need we really have to execute at least two trades. Smart for Bogey in a vacuum isn't terrible... but the roster gets way out of balance. So you need a JC or Joe trade that brings back a big wing.

If you can get a Yuta or something else on the cheap then by all means... that player won't play though unless they move a rotation piece.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I'm not sure if Boston is ready to move Smart. I've listened to a couple pods with The Athletic people that cover the Celtics... they seem to think they wait until the offseason unless someone blows them away.

IDK I guess the argument could be made if you feel like this season is a lost cause (like I do) that maybe you trade Bogey for Smart because he likely has more future value and makes that pivot easier in the offseason. You then move away from Conley in the offseason and try a Smart, Donovan, Royce?, Player X signed in the offseason, and Rudy lineup. I'd really love to know what Ainge's view of this team is.

This is where my head has been going lately, I'm probably about 25% there. I originally thought a Bogey for Smart deal was awful, but have gradually been more comfortable with it given:
- The team needs a major shake up and it takes quality to get quality
- The deal probably doesn't work out in the short term, but still might be fun to watch
- Maybe we could pivot away from Conley in the offseason for a starting quality wing.

I'm currently still 75% not wanting to do a Bogey for Smart trade.