Trade deadline discussion

[LogGrad98]

Steph but they also have Green... Steph is the good cop and Dray is the bad cop... but those two never fight each other. Dray rubbed KD the wrong way and he ended up leaving.

We have too many good cops. Been watching a lot of Yellowstone (no spoilers I'm not caught up just yet) and so now I am comparing everything to that... Ainge has to be John Dutton (kevin Costner) because not only to they have an age kinda similar look type of vibe but also because he is going to have to call the shots here... Rudy is Rip... does all the dirty work... loyal AF... underappreciated. Donovan is Kayce... I guess. One of the problem's is Quin is our Jaime... smart, polished, but he's a coward at heart and afraid to ruffle feathers. The other problem is we have no Beth. One of the best scenes is Costner realizes **** is about to go down and tells Beth he needs her to stick around. She asks "who do you need me to fight?"... he says "everyone". Shes a loose cannon and fearless... she fights everyone around her... including her own family... but she's necessary.

We don't have that... we have too many guys who are great guys, normal dudes, too well centered and adjusted. We need some mother ****ers that are out there to fight... and sometimes they fight everyone... including our team and coach. It needs to come from the right place but sometimes it might border on being cancerous. No more fighting this passive aggressive ********... I need guys separated on the bench. We need some crazy to bring out the fight in these guys. Draymond is as good at that as anyone... he gonna fight the refs, the other team, fans, and sometimes his teammates and coaches. Want to **** up that rotation again... you gonna hear about it.

We don't have one frickin smidge of that... and it started with DL and Quin. Quin is too afraid to lay into the guys... or the refs. We have a lot of good citizens... we need a crazy Beth. Haven't had it since Jae left.

Quin is just too clinical in his approach. No room for emotion when the calculations say we will even out over the long run and win at our calculated 65% clip. No need to challenge, no need to get in the refs grill, it is just a business driven by math.

 

[LoPo]

Steph but they also have Green... Steph is the good cop and Dray is the bad cop... but those two never fight each other. Dray rubbed KD the wrong way and he ended up leaving.

We have too many good cops. Been watching a lot of Yellowstone (no spoilers I'm not caught up just yet) and so now I am comparing everything to that... Ainge has to be John Dutton (kevin Costner) because not only to they have an age kinda similar look type of vibe but also because he is going to have to call the shots here... Rudy is Rip... does all the dirty work... loyal AF... underappreciated. Donovan is Kayce... I guess. One of the problem's is Quin is our Jaime... smart, polished, but he's a coward at heart and afraid to ruffle feathers. The other problem is we have no Beth. One of the best scenes is Costner realizes **** is about to go down and tells Beth he needs her to stick around. She asks "who do you need me to fight?"... he says "everyone". Shes a loose cannon and fearless... she fights everyone around her... including her own family... but she's necessary.

We don't have that... we have too many guys who are great guys, normal dudes, too well centered and adjusted. We need some mother ****ers that are out there to fight... and sometimes they fight everyone... including our team and coach. It needs to come from the right place but sometimes it might border on being cancerous. No more fighting this passive aggressive ********... I need guys separated on the bench. We need some crazy to bring out the fight in these guys. Draymond is as good at that as anyone... he gonna fight the refs, the other team, fans, and sometimes his teammates and coaches. Want to **** up that rotation again... you gonna hear about it.

We don't have one frickin smidge of that... and it started with DL and Quin. Quin is too afraid to lay into the guys... or the refs. We have a lot of good citizens... we need a crazy Beth. Haven't had it since Jae left.

Good analogy. Fantastic show too.

We need Smart to be our Beth in the worst way.

Without a deal for a guy like that, we are destined for Jaime to run us into the ground.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[LoPo]

Steph but they also have Green... Steph is the good cop and Dray is the bad cop... but those two never fight each other. Dray rubbed KD the wrong way and he ended up leaving.

We have too many good cops. Been watching a lot of Yellowstone (no spoilers I'm not caught up just yet) and so now I am comparing everything to that... Ainge has to be John Dutton (kevin Costner) because not only to they have an age kinda similar look type of vibe but also because he is going to have to call the shots here... Rudy is Rip... does all the dirty work... loyal AF... underappreciated. Donovan is Kayce... I guess. One of the problem's is Quin is our Jaime... smart, polished, but he's a coward at heart and afraid to ruffle feathers. The other problem is we have no Beth. One of the best scenes is Costner realizes **** is about to go down and tells Beth he needs her to stick around. She asks "who do you need me to fight?"... he says "everyone". Shes a loose cannon and fearless... she fights everyone around her... including her own family... but she's necessary.

We don't have that... we have too many guys who are great guys, normal dudes, too well centered and adjusted. We need some mother ****ers that are out there to fight... and sometimes they fight everyone... including our team and coach. It needs to come from the right place but sometimes it might border on being cancerous. No more fighting this passive aggressive ********... I need guys separated on the bench. We need some crazy to bring out the fight in these guys. Draymond is as good at that as anyone... he gonna fight the refs, the other team, fans, and sometimes his teammates and coaches. Want to **** up that rotation again... you gonna hear about it.

We don't have one frickin smidge of that... and it started with DL and Quin. Quin is too afraid to lay into the guys... or the refs. We have a lot of good citizens... we need a crazy Beth. Haven't had it since Jae left.

And no, Rudy is not Rip because Rip is the rock. He doesn't ask questions and he doesn't rock the boat. If anything, Rudy is more John Dutton. He's leading the team but needs more help to stay the course.

Royce is more Rip than anybody. Just does anything he's told and tries his hardest at all times.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And no, Rudy is not Rip because Rip is the rock. He doesn't ask questions and he doesn't rock the boat. If anything, Rudy is more John Dutton. He's leading the team but needs more help to stay the course.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

Rudy is Rip and Ainge needs to be Dutton... we can agree to disagree... but JC is Jimmy and we can all agree there. Fun to have around... good jokes and helps the general morale... but holy hell if you need to rely on him to do something smart or competent you are effed.

 

[LoPo]

Rudy is Rip and Ainge needs to be Dutton... we can agree to disagree... but JC is Jimmy and we can all agree there. Fun to have around... good jokes and helps the general morale... but holy hell if you need to rely on him to do something smart or competent you are effed.

Lol. You have Jimmy spot on there.

The problem with comparing Rudy to Rip is that Rip would never in a million years worry about personal accolades. Or be the face of a franchise. Or publicly question anybody. Or complain constantly to the refs.

He would just do his job without demanding anything more than a pat on the back.



Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Good analogy. Fantastic show too.

We need Smart to be our Beth in the worst way.

Without a deal for a guy like that, we are destined for Jaime to run us into the ground.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

There are a few things I'd do... trade JC for whatever you can get... he isn't the only problem but it has to end. And I'd either go get a guy like Smart or some other major emotional shakeup dude... or I do nothing if I can't get that guy. No need in further mortgaging the future for a piece that doesn't change things. Ride out this **** show into the offseason and then do the major move then.

Major means likely kick the tires on Mike but trading Donovan or Rudy. If you keep Donovan then trade Mike... don't do the same small guard thing. If Donovan can't be the heliocentric hub of a championship team then you don't need to build around him... so then move him in a year or so and do a full on rebuild.

@Saint Cy of JFC 's idea of Donovan for Brown is something you strongly consider... I think you could get Smart and a pick in that deal as well. If you trade Rudy then move Mike as well and focus on getting at least one-two way wing and a more offensively diverse 5 man.

I just don't see Donovan and Rudy getting us to the title and now they have gone too far together to not have that be the goal. Second round exits are now extremely disappointing and are considered complete failure. So may as well tear it down.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Lol. You have Jimmy spot on there.

The problem with comparing Rudy to Rip is that Rip would never in a million years worry about personal accolades. Or be the face of a franchise. Or publicly question anybody. Or complain constantly to the refs.

He would just do his job without demanding anything more than a pat on the back.



Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

Look it isn't perfect... but neither is the Donovan/Kayce comp. Maybe Joe is Rip... IDK its close enough for me.

 

[LoPo]

There are a few things I'd do... trade JC for whatever you can get... he isn't the only problem but it has to end. And I'd either go get a guy like Smart or some other major emotional shakeup dude... or I do nothing if I can't get that guy. No need in further mortgaging the future for a piece that doesn't change things. Ride out this **** show into the offseason and then do the major move then.

Major means likely kick the tires on Mike but trading Donovan or Rudy. If you keep Donovan then trade Mike... don't do the same small guard thing. If Donovan can't be the heliocentric hub of a championship team then you don't need to build around him... so then move him in a year or so and do a full on rebuild.

@Saint Cy of JFC 's idea of Donovan for Brown is something you strongly consider... I think you could get Smart and a pick in that deal as well. If you trade Rudy then move Mike as well and focus on getting at least one-two way wing and a more offensively diverse 5 man.

I just don't see Donovan and Rudy getting us to the title and now they have gone too far together to not have that be the goal. Second round exits are now extremely disappointing and are considered complete failure. So may as well tear it down.

What you are proposing for the short term is likely what happens. I do think we have to get at least something useful for JC if we are truly trying our best to win it all this year.

I think Ainge and Zanik need to sit down with Don and Rudy individually. Take nothing off the table. Lay it all bare. They are the franchise. If Rudy or Don disclose any negative feelings in that meeting about the other, you got to separate them. My opinion is that they don't like each other but both are professionals who are trying to make it work.

Rudy's value is at an all time high. The deadline lacks a really good available player of his quality yet there are plenty of buyers. Frankly, his contract scares the ever living **** out of me.

If Don mentions anything about possibly moving on in that meeting, he is the one who moves on.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Miggs]

Mike and Bogey for AD. **** it.

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

I love Butler... the issue is his short contract and the fact that we kinda need to see him now or else he likely goes to waste for us. We have him signed through next year. IF he actually gets to play he may show enough to get an offer we may not be comfortable matching. The lack of playing time is likely to become a problem for him at some point personally and he may not want to be here. The first is the bigger hangup for me. Unless we offload JC or Mike I just don't see him playing here. It kinda sucks.

It’s a huge travesty that Forrest plays over him, I mean what does Forrest actually do?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s a huge travesty that Forrest plays over him, I mean what does Forrest actually do?

He plays above average perimeter defense.

And I think he's viewed as this great caretaker of the offense, but its the opposite. He doesn't shoot the shots you have to shoot because he can't make them... he turns it over a lot and 90% of the turnovers are ones where he isn't trying to do something. You could literally play Paschall there and have him bring it up the court if you want to call that a pg. Butler has struggled but a lot of his mistakes are missed shots or him trying to make passes... Forrest gets stripped doing ****ing nothing, but all of a sudden Quin is super stressed about having a perimeter defender out there. Shaq was/is a better perimeter defender and at very least would shoot the open corner three rather than driving to nowhere or turning it over. We got multiple 3 second calls because he turns down the shot... drives and has nothing so Udoka parks his *** in the paint expecting a dump off or rebound opportunity but nothing happens.

Its just comical at this point. I think Forrest and Don are homies and there is a little bit of a nod given to Trent because of that tbh.

 

[Ujfanatic]

So I've been thinking about this leadership issue all morning. Leaders need the right combination of talent and charisma. Donovan has both, but I am worried he is checking out on this organization. The damage started with the Rudy/COVID situation and was made much worse following the social backlash to Black Lives Matter/George Floyd murder. The collapses in each of the last two playoffs obviously didn't help things, but I actually think the nail in the coffin may have been the all-start team selection last year. The Jazz were playing amazing basketball leading into the all-star break - undoubtedly one of the best stretches in franchise history. And despite that he and Rudy were the last players picked for all-star teams. I think LeBron did that very strategically and I think it bothered Donovan.

I see Donovan as someone who very much wants to sit at the "cool kids table", and LeBron is the leader of the NBA Cool Kids. Rudy is clearly rejected from that club and sits at the "Freaks and Geeks table". During Donovan's rookie year all the "cool kids" were welcoming him into the league and accepting him as one of their own. Now, it feels like he either needs to sit with Rudy at the geek table or distance himself and eventually make the leap.

One of the reasons many of us love Giannis so much is that he decidedly doesn't care about the Cool Kids table. I actually think Steph is the same. I think Donovan does care, and while I wish that wasn't the case I can't blame him either. Social dynamics have a major influence on most of us.

I am more and more coming to the conclusion that Donovan and Rudy may not work together due to off-the-court issues. Trading Rudy makes us a lottery team. If, however, we could trade Donovan for another star that doesn't care about the Cool Kids table maybe we have a chance to fix the locker room issues and get back on track. The player I have thinking about this morning; Dame Lillard. His age fits the timeline of the rest of our roster much better, he has also actively rejected overtures to join the Cool Kids, already has a connection to Utah, and desperately wants to win a championship now.