Trade deadline discussion

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yep, Jared Butler was regarded as one of the most NBA ready players in the class. He was regarded as a good defender, high IQ player, high intangibles, great shooter, clutch, 3 year college starter, etc. The only thing that prevented him from being a top 20 pick was medicals.

It's nothing short of shocking to me how little opportunity he has gotten in favor of Trent Forrest. And I love Trent Forrest more than almost anyone on this board as I think he has real backup PG potential.

He's been pretty mediocre in the G-League, but he's only played 7 games and Utah fields the least talented G-League team (by far, For Example: Jazz play Dwayne Wade's son 14 mpg and he couldn't even get minutes on his high school team his senior year. I also dont think they had single NBA call-up during the covid spike), so he doesnt have much help.

Herb Jones obviously better than I thought, but I see no guarantee that he would have played for Quin. I don't see a lot of consistency to Quin's thought process on who he plays and doesnt play. I'm sure there is something there to how he coaches and how he wants guys to respond to it, but it's not in anyway readable from my POV.

The mismanagement of that "asset" has been pretty bad from the front office down. Having the 30th pick is better than two second rounders because you can give them a 4 year deal. Just take Butler or whoever there so you don't give a guy a two year deal that has no great shot of playing. So that was mistake #1.

Then JB comes off a great pre-season and there is this weird narrative about "hold your horses... this guy needs to learn to play with others...". This mostly came from Locke who was putting Forrest over Butler from the start. I'm guessing he talks to the coaches. Quin feels like he needs to play butler a few minutes a night but he struggles in those few minutes so he yanks him.

Then the guy who needs to learn to play with others goes to the G League which is the most selfish chucker environment... and as you noted it is not filled with real players this year. I don't get it.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is where my head has been going lately, I'm probably about 25% there. I originally thought a Bogey for Smart deal was awful, but have gradually been more comfortable with it given:
- The team needs a major shake up and it takes quality to get quality
- The deal probably doesn't work out in the short term, but still might be fun to watch
- Maybe we could pivot away from Conley in the offseason for a starting quality wing.

I'm currently still 75% not wanting to do a Bogey for Smart trade.

If we got Nesmith and maybe some light draft capital I'd think hard about it if the master plan was a bigger pivot. I guess the question you ask if you are thinking of moving on from Mike is will they just do a straight swap of Mike for Smart (plus some salary filler). IDK... just feels like if we take a big swing we may be the team that is forcing the issue and may give 125% of trade value to make it happen.

The easiest trade to make is something around JC if we can find a team that wants him. I think there are enough teams that are trying to "buy" and not a lot of sellers out there... that you may find something. Rockets were thought to be willing to sell off Gordon but he has played so well that they are now thinking of keeping him unless the get a first for him. I just wonder if Cleveland is willing to take on JC or give one of their good seconds for him. How desperate is NO... they have some motivation to suck since they owe a pick if it is outside the lotto. Wizards have some roster imbalance... Just wonder who might be a surprise buyer.

 

[LoPo]

In my opinion, it makes a ton of sense to move Bogey, Ingles, and Conley if they can return positive value. Not because it helps us win a championship this year, but because they are aging and because I have lost faith in this group.

I still think we can build a contender around Don and Rudy, but everyone else I've lost faith in. I am thinking more with an eye to 2-3 years from now, so if you can turn Bogey into assets and a younger player like Smart that will fit the timeline of the new core to come, you do it. If we wait too long the only thing we can turn Bogey into is glue. I think we are already there with Joe.

Sorry to be negative. If you think this current iteration of the Jazz still has title chances, the only guys that we should be actively shopping are Ingles and Clarkson. If you can attach a 2nd Round pick to Ingles and turn it into Josh Richardson, you do it. If you can turn Clarkson into Marcus Smart, you do it. Anything more drastic than that at this point probably signals the FO has lost faith in this core and is trying to re-tool for a few years from now.

It's reasonable to think this core COULD win a title if the matchups shake out favorably, but it's also reasonable to think it's time to start the re-tool before it becomes a rebuild. Guess we'll have some insight soon on how Ainge sees things.

I don't think we are contenders so staying completely put is unwise. I don't like Bojan for Smart, but I do want Smart. I think he fits a Don and Rudy roster quite well. I don't think anybody wants to play us with those 3 in the playoffs.

We really have to be looking at our luxury number. That's why I think it's foolish to trade Joe for future salary. Clarkson and Conley should be on the table if the right trade comes along. If Conley gets another late season/postseason injury, he could have zero trade value in the summer.

We have to be looking at our age too in relation to the lack of assets. We are old now but really old and expensive next year.

 

[jom2003]

If we had drafted herb Jones we'd be wondering why he isn't playing and lamenting his continual assignments to the G league.

there's no "Forrest" who plays Herb Jones spot and therefore the kid would get some opportunities.

 

[jom2003]

Quin played Donovan quite a bit as a Rookie, and played Grayson Allen as a rookie too. Has a single young player left here and done anything besides Grayson Allen (who, again, Quin played as rookie)?

There are good reasons to knock Quin, but not playing the draft whiffs and G-League crud on the bottom of the roster isn't one of them.

The FO has failed Quin here. The FO should seriously let the beat writers draft for us. We'd have Desmond Bane and Herb Jones on the roster right now.

I mean for those scrubs who didn't get a chance under Quin, it's not like they are getting a look by any other coaches in the league. Oni is still a FA. Shaq is barely surviving on ten days. Brantley went straight to Europe. but of course it gotta be quin who's holding them back, no way they just actually suck at basketball

 

[LoPo]

From Marc Stein:

Speaking of Utah: While Sacramento continues to be the league's No. 1 Team to Watch in terms of anticipated trade activity, this one is high on the list.

The Jazz were 19-7 when the hiring of Danny Ainge as the club's new basketball CEO was announced. They're just 11-10 since, including a 4-8 record in 2022.

While injury absences and COVID-19 intrusions have certainly factored into the slump, Utah hasn’t been able to dispel the perception that it has been disrupted by the looming prospect of Ainge's first trade(s) to shake things up. Scouts have noted that the Jazz are also increasingly struggling to mask their athleticism deficit given how much they rely on Bojan Bogdanović (age 32) and Joe Ingles (34).

Portland's Robert Covington, league sources say, is a trade target who interests the Jazz given their well-known desire to upgrade defensively on the wing. Detroit's Jerami Grant is said to be Utah's most preferred target in that quest, but it's believed that the Pistons have no interest in a trade package headlined by Ingles' expiring $13 million contract packaged with a future first-round pick.

 

[jom2003]

Yep, Jared Butler was regarded as one of the most NBA ready players in the class. He was regarded as a good defender, high IQ player, high intangibles, great shooter, clutch, 3 year college starter, etc. The only thing that prevented him from being a top 20 pick was medicals.

It's nothing short of shocking to me how little opportunity he has gotten in favor of Trent Forrest. And I love Trent Forrest more than almost anyone on this board as I think he has real backup PG potential.

He's been pretty mediocre in the G-League, but he's only played 7 games and Utah fields the least talented G-League team (by far, For Example: Jazz play Dwayne Wade's son 14 mpg and he couldn't even get minutes on his high school team his senior year. I also dont think they had single NBA call-up during the covid spike), so he doesnt have much help.

Herb Jones obviously better than I thought, but I see no guarantee that he would have played for Quin. I don't see a lot of consistency to Quin's thought process on who he plays and doesnt play. I'm sure there is something there to how he coaches and how he wants guys to respond to it, but it's not in anyway readable from my POV.

well trey Burke was regarded as the most nba ready in his class as well. so were jabari parker, jahlil okafor, etc. All draft busts have to be well regarded before the draft to be taken so high off the board, but that didn't stop them from being busts. Butler had his opportunity against toronto but he simply got exposed in that game. i've still got high hopes for him but i don't think he's ready for any real nba actions as of now, especially on a team trying to contend. forrest has played significantly better over the past two games and showed us why he deserves minutes. still don't think he's ready offensively, but he's already one of the best perimeter defenders we've had in many years.

 

[Jingled]

From Marc Stein:

Speaking of Utah: While Sacramento continues to be the league's No. 1 Team to Watch in terms of anticipated trade activity, this one is high on the list.

The Jazz were 19-7 when the hiring of Danny Ainge as the club's new basketball CEO was announced. They're just 11-10 since, including a 4-8 record in 2022.

While injury absences and COVID-19 intrusions have certainly factored into the slump, Utah hasn’t been able to dispel the perception that it has been disrupted by the looming prospect of Ainge's first trade(s) to shake things up. Scouts have noted that the Jazz are also increasingly struggling to mask their athleticism deficit given how much they rely on Bojan Bogdanović (age 32) and Joe Ingles (34).

Portland's Robert Covington, league sources say, is a trade target who interests the Jazz given their well-known desire to upgrade defensively on the wing. Detroit's Jerami Grant is said to be Utah's most preferred target in that quest, but it's believed that the Pistons have no interest in a trade package headlined by Ingles' expiring $13 million contract packaged with a future first-round pick.

Covington for Joe would make a lot of sense. I just hope we don't give up a first round pick for him because he's been on the decline the past couple of seasons.

 

[Deron Williams]

I'll go on record as saying I'd be thrilled to trade Bogey for Smart. Nothing against BB, but I think Smart is the better all-around player.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

If we’re doing an Ingles for Covington trade, the Bojan for Smart trade makes more sense.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Covington for Joe would make a lot of sense. I just hope we don't give up a first round pick for him because he's been on the decline the past couple of seasons.

Portland is likely looking to duck the tax. If they can drop $3M while offloading RoCo they would likely not require a lot of draft capital. Joe for Covington makes zero sense for them. Maybe some sort of three team swap maybe. One thing I thought of immediately upon seeing this is maybe they give RoCo and a couple seconds for Royce and salary filler. They have a budget issue coming and Royce's deal going forward would likely help and give them a win-now player for next year... if they are keeping Dame anyway.

 

[Jingled]

Portland is likely looking to duck the tax. If they can drop $3M while offloading RoCo they would likely not require a lot of draft capital. Joe for Covington makes zero sense for them. Maybe some sort of three team swap maybe. One thing I thought of immediately upon seeing this is maybe they give RoCo and a couple seconds for Royce and salary filler. They have a budget issue coming and Royce's deal going forward would likely help and give them a win-now player for next year... if they are keeping Dame anyway.

Three team trade involving Joe is probably the more likely scenario. I'm not against trading Royce at all but I doubt the Jazz feel the same way.

 

[Jingled]

What position does Covington play these days? Is he more of a 3 or a 4?

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

well trey Burke was regarded as the most nba ready in his class as well. so were jabari parker, jahlil okafor, etc. All draft busts have to be well regarded before the draft to be taken so high off the board, but that didn't stop them from being busts. Butler had his opportunity against toronto but he simply got exposed in that game. i've still got high hopes for him but i don't think he's ready for any real nba actions as of now, especially on a team trying to contend. forrest has played significantly better over the past two games and showed us why he deserves minutes. still don't think he's ready offensively, but he's already one of the best perimeter defenders we've had in many years.

Forrest is also being given the minutes to improve and get comfortable. And in the Raptors game Forrest played about the same quality of game that Butler did!

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

What position does Covington play these days? Is he more of a 3 or a 4?

He's a wing defender. He's not a great man defender, probably on a similar level of Ingles. He's just longer and a good team defender like Ingles. He's not going to significantly raise Utah's ability to play athletic. He's not going to be able to guard top option quick guards.

 

[jom2003]

Forrest is also being given the minutes to improve and get comfortable. And in the Raptors game Forrest played about the same quality of game that Butler did!

that's why i said we should've drafted herb jones. then he would likely get the same forrest treatment to improve his game.

there's only limited minutes available for backup point guards in the rotation. if quin's plan was to play forrest the entire time, we should've just drafted a wing player instead of another point guard. Only ones who would've stood in Jones way were Oni and Fitts and they are both gone. Just cut Royce/Jingles minutes and we can easily squeeze out 10-15min a night for Jones.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Portland's done this year. Dame isn't coming back unless the Blazers solidify their playoff position, and the Blazers need Dame back to solidify their playoff position.

That said, I'm not a big fan of Covington. His reputation exceeds his performance. TBH, I think I'd prefer Kuzma.

 

[Jingled]

I really hope the plan isn't to trade Bogey for Smart and then replace Bogey with Covington.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

He's a wing defender. He's not a great man defender, probably on a similar level of Ingles. He's just longer and a good team defender like Ingles. He's not going to significantly raise Utah's ability to play athletic. He's not going to be able to guard top option quick guards.

He helps more at the rim and is more disruptive... but he is a turnstile when guarding quicker guards.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I really hope the plan isn't to trade Bogey for Smart and then replace Bogey with Covington.

I don't see how you can play RoCo and Royce together. RC is more aggressive getting his shot off but neither guy should be dribbling or passing much.

Swapping Royce for RoCo and likely getting the Portland second might low key be a good budget move for next year. He replaces Royce for the year then you open up some salary with Joe and RoCo expiring. Get a solid second or two and replace Royce next year with a budget version.