No, if anything I’m really thinking we should trade Mitchell.
Trade Rumors Involving the Jazz
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No, if anything I’m really thinking we should trade Mitchell.
YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
I genuinely do not care about John Collins or Clint Capela, why are these Hawks fans so concerned about Rudy?
YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
Trading both wouldn't have been a bad idea but we probably should've done it before the draft.
YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
They must have seen me refer to someone as Ryan Smith and thought he posted here
I agree with the 1st sentence, especially for smaller market teams.
It does though. I see it all of the time for our players. When you start asking teams for serious assets, the questions get a lot larger and the criticism gets a lot louder. Toronto fans would be PRAISING the idea of Gobert if it was for Thad Young and Gary Trent Jr. but ask them for OG Annunby and Gobert might as well be a Big 3 player age-wise and the world's most limited player. I have seen it for the last four weeks with John Collins. He was PRAISED by Kings and Spurs fans till they realized the Hawks wanted #4 or Murray. Now he's an empty stats guy in their eyes, LMAO!
He's paid top dollar for defense, if the defense looks breakable, his defensive value just wasn't that good or good enough based on his salary.
I would say the impact speaks for itself but only to a degree.
He was exposed even if it wasn't his fault. Al Horford was our ace in the 60-win Hawk season. LeBron in the ECF destroyed our defensive integrity and Horford has to make up for it only allowing Tristian Thompson to have the series of his life. The average Hawk fan blames Horford for that when in reality, that was our trash-*** perimeter defensive guys and LeBron playing 44 mins a game making it impossible for those defenders. If you put a defender in the game to guard LeBron, on the other end, LeBron gets to rest using his energy to just relentlessly attack.
That's a scheme issue, Bud's teams used to have this issue till Bud finally decided to use the RS to experiment and not try to win every game the same way only to get exposed in the playoffs. The Utah scheme isn't there to stop down perimeter dribble drivers. It's to funnel traffic into Gobert and force mid-range shots but that's not the best idea against Dallas.
He can't guard five guys, no one can and I agree, the 1 and the 3 are your biggest issues. Conley was so damn good the year before, he regressed last year back to 1st year in Utah Conley.
He's making 38 million and 44 million per. That's extremely hard to build around unless you willing to pay the LT like the Warriors where they don't care. The salary cap structure means that impact doesn't equal value. Think about it this way, some of these kids who are just decent get bigger deals than proven vets but that's because of their long term potential and role than their impact. That's why someone like Gobert at his age of 30+ should be making max, 25 million per. Anything more is an overpay VALUE wise even if impact wise, he deserve it.
YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
You just paid Trae Young $207M for his offensive value and he was horrible and was extremely inefficient last year too, lol.
So Collins is more versatile but less efficient than Rudy. I think that is the summation of the discussion. I think the facts confirm this as true. So I guess one has to ask themselves what they consider more important versatility or efficiency? Personally I like guys to make shots on less attempts. That seems to produce more winning moments. The reason why regular offensive numbers are not an indicator of playoff success is because teams have time to make adjustments and exploit opponent's weaknesses. Plus, in the playoffs teams tend to play harder and better defense if they have the team to do so. Utah has been exposed defensively in the playoffs and thus Rudy has taken the blame. In reality the problem is the four other guys not being even average defenders. Ok Royce is slight above average but he has declined the last few years. Conley tries but his lack of size is an issue. DM is an effort issue. Bogey is average and struggles in certain situations.
Lastly, your defense of Smart of him guarding Curry well is more a deflection of reality. There were plenty of times Smart got torched by Curry. Not saying this means Smart is not a good defender. He is DPOY. However much of Smart's success comes from having defenders at all other positions. Tatum, Brown, Williams, White and Hortford are solid or above average defenders. Rudy has maybe Royce who has lost some defensive ability as a decent defender and he is undersize at the 4 and not quick enough to guard fast guards. Bogey has his moments but besides that the rest of the crew is average or horrible. So comparing Rudy and Smart's efficient in the playoffs is an unfair comparison. I know for sure Smart would struggle playing on the Jazz with that supporting cast and Rudy would dominate the paint being on the Celtics and they would be NBA champs.
YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
Why do you care?
Jazz out: Mitchell
Jazz in: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds, 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd both from Boston
Heat out: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, Duncan Robinson, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds
Heat in: Donovan Mitchell
Celtics out: 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd
Celtics in: Duncan Robinson
We immediately save 24.6M in salary.
We get 3 unprotected firsts, 5 seconds and two pick swap options for 2024/2026 1sts from the Heat.
Herro can step into Mitchell’s role on offense.
Boston has a 17.1M trade exception they can absorb Robinson into.
Who says no?
Jazz in: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds, 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd both from Boston
Heat out: Tyler Herro, Max Strus, Nikola Jovic, Duncan Robinson, 2023/2027/2029 unprotected 1sts, pick swap options in 2024 and 2026, 2026/2028/2029 2nds
Heat in: Donovan Mitchell
Celtics out: 2023 Orlando 2nd and 2023 Portland 2nd
Celtics in: Duncan Robinson
We immediately save 24.6M in salary.
We get 3 unprotected firsts, 5 seconds and two pick swap options for 2024/2026 1sts from the Heat.
Herro can step into Mitchell’s role on offense.
Boston has a 17.1M trade exception they can absorb Robinson into.
Who says no?
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YoungJefe
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree that Rudy is more of a 25 million player but that is not how the CBA works. Because young Rudy won DPOY and made ALL NBA and All-star games he earned the salary he now has. As you pointed out franchises are reluctant to give away promising younger players in a trade or lose them in FA they pay the MAX. That is the situation Utah is in now. When players are younger franchises are more patient and overvalue them sometimes. If you take away the contract and look at the player's production it would be a no brainer for Toronto to give OG Annunby in a trade. He is not anywhere close to being the player Rudy is but because fans/organization love his potential they don't want to give him up. Potential suitors for Rudy include teams who don't care about the tax situation or a team who is a contender but needs to get over the hump to the next level. As a Jazz fan, I would rather the Jazz either keep both DM and Rudy and try to see if they could find suitors for Bogey, Conley, Royce or JC to see if they could improve their back court and wing positions. Not an easy chore but that is my preference because I don't' think Utah will get the needed value in trading Rudy.
Well, that's obvious. That's generally the case when you compare rim runners to guys who score at three levels.
versatility and efficiency are both important, not separate commodities. Tyson Chandler used to lead the league in efficiency whereas someone like Andrei Kirilenko would provide elite versatility. Ideally, you rather have Tim Duncan who is capable of both consistently.
I personally evaluate guys based on their situation and what's needed. I don't have a narrow-minded way of looking at how I see players across the league.
Yep
Yep
100% on that, Rudy has taken the blunt of the blame. Who are you going to blame, garbage perimeter defenders that's been garbage all season. It wasn't like that was a new discovery.
Yep
He's too small (O'Neale)
He's gotten older and his feet aren't what they used to be defensively. Father time is undefeated (Conley)
I disagree, I think he would be better off defending 1s (Mitchell)
Bogey, I think he's a terrible defender for the most part. He's a good team defender but in the playoffs, you need more than that.
You really can't lock down a player the caliber of Curry. Wiggins quote on quote locked down Luka to 31 PPG against Dallas. Those guys will score, you just want to make it tough and Smart did that from all of the games I saw in the Finals. Even Draymond gave Smart his respect after the series ended.
Smart is a great defender.
Horford and White is a very good defender, the rest are solid defensively. They are capable of good defense but they measure their effort on defense based on their offense effort. It's hard to give max effort on both ends no matter who you are if you are a primary offensive option.
I am not gonna compare Boston to Utah.
Yeah but how would Boston afford Rudy. Horford and Williams combine for less than Gobert's contract. Do you think Gobert is worth two good role players impact wise? Maybe he is but that's tough since it's just one player and create a hole at the 4 unless they go small which would work with Gobert. White/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Gobert would work. I agree with you then.
I agree with most till the Anunoby part. A 24-year-old two-way big wing is the most desired prototype in the NBA and his contract is 18 per. His value is closer to the max level than Rudy's based on age, prototype, and cost. You aren't getting him in any deal that doesn't include Donovan Mitchell. This is where you confuse being a top 15 impact player like Gobert and his trade value. There is no team in the NBA that would trade OG for Gobert. Not one. Two-way wings>>>> everything else unless you are a superstar or a #1 option star scorer. I had Hawk fans try to ask if we could trade OG for Clint. I laughed and said, this is where you confuse production and impact with value, especially how teams see players. There is no team that wouldn't hang up the phone laughing if you offered Capela for their two-way wing, even if the two-way wing is raw like Patrick Williams.
Ya'll gotta understand trade value and impact value. Gobert is superior impact-wise to Mitchell but trade value-wise, Mitchell might as well be twice the player to others around the league.
The Jazz Wonderbra
Well-Known Member
Looks like the discussion has turned in to a Young Jefe soliloquy.
Not much happening on the trade front as of now and even less on this discussion board.
Not much happening on the trade front as of now and even less on this discussion board.
My point wasn't if Boston could afford Rudy, it is that if he had better defensive players around him he wouldn't be getting criticized like he does in Utah. Likewise, Smart would not be as effective.
I agree no defender can guard Curry all the time but it helps when you have teammates who can switch or cover your back. Every player on the Celtics starting five is a better defender than Utah is except for Rudy. Williams on the Celtics has potential to be a DPOY some day too.
While I agree having a player who is both versatile and efficient is ideal. You missed the point. The discussion was your claim that Rudy is limited and Collins is more versatile. I agree with this but on the other hand Rudy is more efficient. It doesn't matter how one scores this is not figure skating. The whole point of basketball is to put the ball in the basket so I value efficiency over versatility if the player doesn't have both qualities.
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You know that DM would never be traded for OG. First OG has been hurt a lot. Secondly, he is limited on the offensive end. I am not confused at all. I understand the difficulty of trading Rudy due to his contract. That is the major reason why he is not traded in my opinion is due to his contract and age. If he were 24 years old the likely hood of him being traded would increase but the contract could still make it difficult. OG is more desired due to his age/contract and the fact that Wings are more coveted than centers in today's NBA. However, Rudy is still the better player if you look at his accomplishments and ignore the rest. So I am in agreement with you about the reasons why OG is not going to be traded for Rudy, but you are missing the point. My point is Rudy is the better player and has accomplished more than OG so straight up it would be a no brainer to trade for RUdy based upon talent. I know that is not how trades work though.
LoPo
Well-Known Member
And watch Rudy's value continue to erode?
Zero logic in that
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1. Debatable. It's all about the best offer, if you get him, some other prospects, and the draft picks, Utah would seriously consider it as most teams would. My guess is what you think you can probably get for Mitchell is not an offer any NBA team would make. I personally think you could get a better offer for Mitchell.
2. He has been.
3. Naw. He's not limited. He just isn't consistent, if he ever becomes consistent, he has all-star potential.
4. Very confused if you think you can get OG for Gobert. Extremely confused.
5. Do you? That severely limits his incoming value and trade market to levels that may seem undesirable. I don't believe that's something Utah is willing to do, it's something I don't believe I would be willing to do. I feel like it's easier just to try your hardest to improve the locker room culture and make it where Rudy and Mitchell want to work together.
6. Yeah
7. Yeah
8. How?
9. If you are exclusively talking about impact, yes. But value wise, no, not even close.
10. Yeah, I agree. You seem very intelligent and a great representation of the Jazz fanbase. I've enjoyed talking with you.
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