fishonjazz
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Trey-Alec-Gordo-Favors-Enes -9 Last Night in 12 Minutes
- Thread starter GVC
- Start date
yamers
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i agree with this too.
He totally got zones in and forgets about everything else.
berkkobe
Well-Known Member
Just think about how much he learned and progressed tonight?!? He'll be an allstar soon. Plus him not sniffing the court clearly helped everyones game. He is the cores kryptonite.
GVC
Well-Known Member
How so?
Yes. Massive amounts of money to spend with a true franchise player to build around... and its fun bb.
![[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]](/data/avatars/m/2/2497.jpg?1511131091){kind=avatar}
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]
Well-Known Member
Your question is stuck in the past.
We can start 1 WING and two GUARDS. Or, sometimes you see 2 WINGS and one GUARD. As long as Hayward can guard the opposing WING, then there is no problem starting both Hayward and Burks.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Looks to me Marv and RJ are slowly being phased out. This is good. I do think at some point the c5 will start together and not because of injury. I'm not sure that is good for us getting a top 5 pick.
candrew
Well-Known Member
Williams' minutes are being pared down correctly; but Jefferson is still playing way too many minutes. He's averaging more MPG this month than last. And that's with having a lot of pine time the last couple of games because he's been beyond horrible.
Jefferson has max 38 games left in Utah - there is no reason for him to play more than 16-18mpg.
Some people are convinced that if we turn over the team completely to the young guns they'll somehow stop developing. As if what they've learned to this point will be undone. If we get Parker or Wiggins it won't matter because the team will have not learned how to win. Because this season we've taught them how to win games.
GVC
Well-Known Member
This whole discussion about starting v. bench, lineups/complementarities got me thinking about one of my favorite Jazz bench duos (I started watching in 03/04): Millsap+AK.[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];755124 said:
Since I find it hard to remember the specifics of past Jazz seasons, I took a look at the stats to help refresh my memory and see if what I currently remember as a great duo was, in fact, a great duo.
In 08/09, the Jazz finished 48-34, and lost to the eventual champion Lakers 4-1 in the first round of the playoffs. From a fan perspective, the big stories that season were Carlos Boozer's knee injury/surgery, which limited him to just 37 games, and Paul Millsap's stellar play as his most frequent replacement in the starting lineup. Perhaps lost in the shuffle was Jerry's decision to bring AK off the bench that season; AK started a Utah career low 10 games in 08/09.
Unfortunately, my understanding of offensive/defensive sets and strategy is (and was) limited, so I can't pinpoint why the duo was so effective, but what I remember is two incredibly intelligent players, who brought consistent effort and always played to win. Opposing teams' benches didn't stand a chance.
That season, the Jazz were 19-14 (.576) when the duo came off the bench, 22-16 (.579) when Millsap started, and 6-4 (.600) when AK started (the duo never started together that season). Fortunately, lineup data is available back to the 07/08 season on NBA.com, and I was able to see how well the Jazz did with different combinations of AK/Millsap/neither on the court (unfortunately, there's no way that I know of to measure the quality of their opponents).
For the season, the Team was +217 in 3976 minutes, or +2.62 per 48 minutes.
Paul Millsap was a team best +272 in 2290 minutes. He was second on the team at +5.70/48 minutes.
AK was second on the team at +263 in 1830 minutes. He led the team at +6.90/48 minutes.
AK and Millsap shared the court for 968 minutes in 08/09. In those minutes they were +257, or +12.74/48 minutes. This 2-man lineup ranked 1st on the team in +/- per 48 minutes among the 66 2-man lineups that logged at least 100 minutes. I can only see the top 250 league lineups (in minutes) from that season (the cutoff is 1169 minutes), so the duo doesn't show up, but only 12 of the 250 most used league lineups had a better +/- per 48 than AK-Millsap.
When Millsap was on-court and AK off-court (1322 minutes), the Jazz were +15 (+0.54/48 minutes). When AK was on-court and Millsap off-court (862 minutes), the Jazz were +6 (+0.33/48 minutes).
In the 824 minutes when neither Millsap nor AK were on the court, the Jazz were -61, or -3.55/48 minutes.
So what's the point? Did Jerry make a mistake by not finding more minutes for AK and Millsap (at least when Boozer was healthy) or by not starting one or both of them? Would the success of Millsap-AK, presumably playing a lot of their minutes together against opposing teams' benches, have translated playing more minutes in total and against starters? The answers to both those questions may be "yes", but it's also entirely possible that the Jazz were better off starting Deron-Boozer-Memo when possible, while also bringing AK off the bench to maximize the minutes he played with Millsap (fun fact: In 08/09, Ronnie Price started 17 games, Kosta Koufos 7, Jarron Collins 3, KK and Harp 2, Fes and Mo Almond 1. CJ started 72; Ronnie Brewer started 80). The way players complement each other matters a lot, and scored baskets are worth the same 2 or 3 points no matter how many starters are on the bench.
While there's plenty of room to disagree about minutes, roles, lineups, etc. (what's the counterfactual?), I think it's important to be critical, and consider the possible advantages of using players in different, complementary lineups. Throwing your 5 best overall players out there together may not be what's best for the team or the individual players.
I like that Corbin is using RJ as a placeholder for a 3&D player (I don't know if this is his motivation), allowing Gordo to slide to the 2 and Burks to lead the 2nd unit, giving it a dynamic on-ball player. Unfortunately, RJ's D leaves a lot to be desired (from where I sit), and I think what might be lost in overall size at the 2-3 is made up for in overall talent and athleticism, playing Burks-Gordo instead of Gordo-RJ. That is, I still like Burks off the bench (the benefit of having him play with the second unit is greater than the cost of not having him in the starting lineup), but would like to see him get more of RJ's minutes.
GVC
Well-Known Member
The team has been completely turned over to the young players. Watch a a ****ing game.
GVC
Well-Known Member
I've been advocating more playing time for him for a while. I still think super-6th man would be a fantastic outcome in Burks' development.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Really? Are you holding on to the "Youngsters need more time for development/Corbin sucks" argument that tightly? Gobert is a raw 21-year-old NBA rookie with limited professional experience, under team control for at least the next 4 years. There are bigger fish to fry.