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1.3%. Yup, that is the going rate of people of African Americans in the entire state of Utah. 1.3% That is astonishing. While African-Americans make up 15% of the US population, it is only 1% in Utah. Is it surprising that these racial events keep occurring in a Utah arena?
Does it also astonish you that Utah has one of the lowest murder rates in the United States but one of the highest number of guns per owner?
 
Uhh, the better question is how many Jews are there in Utah?
Yeah, zero Jews were beat up in Utah, just like statistics will also show there were zero Martians beat up in Utah. Figure out why.
There will be a lot more after you morons burn them out of NYC. . .
 
Does it also astonish you that Utah has one of the lowest murder rates in the United States but one of the highest number of guns per owner?

Not really. The rubes out there simply don't know how to use them.

Just curious, if the murder rate is among the lowest, why, pray tell, would there be such a need for "the highest number of guns per owner"? Is it some weird sexual fetish to own numerous guns? Are grizzly bears killing you Utes by the thousands? Do you Utes feel the big bad government is going to enslave us all? Hmmm, murder rate the lowest, but gun ownership through the roof. Maybe instead of purchasing a multitude of guns, you Utes should spend your money on another hobby. How about education, books, proper attire (baseball caps, blue jeans, and a t-shirt are so nowhere).
 
Not really. The rubes out there simply don't know how to use them.

Just curious, if the murder rate is among the lowest, why, pray tell, would there be such a need for "the highest number of guns per owner"? Is it some weird sexual fetish to own numerous guns? Are grizzly bears killing you Utes by the thousands? Do you Utes feel the big bad government is going to enslave us all? Hmmm, murder rate the lowest, but gun ownership through the roof. Maybe instead of purchasing a multitude of guns, you Utes should spend your money on another hobby. How about education, books, proper attire (baseball caps, blue jeans, and a t-shirt are so nowhere).
It's really quite simple. It's none of your business and private citizens constitutional right to own as many guns as they'd like, think of it as a hobby.

Stay safe out there in those cozy streets of NYC ;)
 
It's really quite simple. It's none of your business and private citizens constitutional right to own as many guns as they'd like, think of it as a hobby.

It is all of our business when the gun owner goes into a place of business and blasts away at innocent people. And I apologize that I have to go back a really long way to come up with an example of when that happened. Hmmm, I think it was two days ago in a rail yard in California.
 
It is all of our business when the gun owner goes into a place of business and blasts away at innocent people. And I apologize that I have to go back a really long way to come up with an example of when that happened. Hmmm, I think it was two days ago in a rail yard in California.
What are you even talking about? Here you are blabbering off at the mouth about liberal infested California, what does that have to do with Utah?

I was talking about one of the SAFEST places to live in America. No white liberal/BLM people burning **** down here. Kids will not be taught marxist theories in our schools. The friendliest most helpful neighbors/community you will find in any state in the Union.

Enjoy your **** hole
 
OK, I would probably rephrase that to "most" of those those DEMANDING more "understanding." I can actually full get behind promoting understanding. Understanding comes through teaching and friendship, not at the point of a metaphorical gun.

I mean, I talked to a person that REMEMBERED the Tulsa race riots as a little girl living in the community. I've lived in towns where the segregated areas of town pretty much remain that way. I've knocked doors in cities where we didn't encounter a single black person, when the surrounding areas were probably at 25-30% black. That didn't happen organically. I lived in Russia, where in the late 90's, racism against black people was pretty out in the open and certain degrees were not available to members of certain races (you could be a nurse but not a doctor.) Utah's race "problem" isn't in the same stratosphere with stuff like that, and as a Utahn, it is hard to comprehend that stuff without seeing it personally.

The trick is to find the way to "see it personally" when that history isn't THEIR history. Everybody has their top concerns and are unlikely to kindly let someone else dictate what the order of those concerns should be, especially for an issue which barely, if ever, touches their lives.
I'm with you on most things here. I'm not here to harp on Utah while by implication exonerating other places that have different (whether better or worse) racism problems. I'm simply here to recognize that Utah has a problem and that I'm (to the extent that I'm part of Utah) acknowledge that it's my problem too. If we can diagnose the aspects that make Utah's issues unique, we'll be better off, I think.

But yes, getting people to see things "personally" is a huge issue. To a certain extent it's not a challenge that is likely to ever be fully successful. But this is not that we can't ever improve things. Education, I believe, is a key tool here, imperfect as it is. It's one of the only ways we learn that things that seemingly don't affect us are actually more connected to us than we realize.
 
Not really. The rubes out there simply don't know how to use them.

Just curious, if the murder rate is among the lowest, why, pray tell, would there be such a need for "the highest number of guns per owner"? Is it some weird sexual fetish to own numerous guns? Are grizzly bears killing you Utes by the thousands? Do you Utes feel the big bad government is going to enslave us all? Hmmm, murder rate the lowest, but gun ownership through the roof. Maybe instead of purchasing a multitude of guns, you Utes should spend your money on another hobby. How about education, books, proper attire (baseball caps, blue jeans, and a t-shirt are so nowhere).
I would pretty much promise you the average Utahn knows how to use a gun far more than the average New Yorker. I am for tighter gun regulations for sure, but not killing someone does not imply someone doesn’t know how to use a gun. I own several firearms, for hunting purposes. I’m for tighter gun protections, but this isn’t a gun thread and it’s a complicated conversation, so back to the issue at hand.
 
What are you even talking about? Here you are blabbering off at the mouth about liberal infested California, what does that have to do with Utah?

I was talking about one of the SAFEST places to live in America. No white liberal/BLM people burning **** down here. Kids will not be taught marxist theories in our schools. The friendliest most helpful neighbors/community you will find in any state in the Union.

Enjoy your **** hole

Hmmm, typical. When talking about gun violence, gun holders immediately deflect. You don't want to talk about the senseless savage act by a gun owner in rail yard two days ago. You must immediately deflect to your talking points (liberal, California, BLM...).

Enjoy your guns. But can you do me a favor? Five minutes before you die, can you allow me to call you? I will simply ask how much money you spent on your various guns and then ask you in your entire life did you ever once use those guns to fend off marauding home invaders or did you ever once use those guns to defend your sovereignty against the tyrannical United States government and military? Get the point? What a waste of money you spent on your gun collection. Could have done something for your loved ones with that money instead of buying weapons that you use to fulfill your insane fantasies that you are Charles Bronson in DEATH WISH or a patriot defeating the tyranny of the Unites States government. Yes, your money spent on your guns that you never once used to save your life or your freedom was well spent, wasn't it?

Oh, and if you say you use your guns for target practice or hunting...
A) use a pellet gun
B) use a bow and arrow.
Both cheaper than firearms.
 
We don't do racial intolerance. Utah Jazz fans have cornered that market.
You have already shown you support this kind of behavior, defending spitting on another human being and making comments that they deserved it, all in the interest of keeping your shtick going, so this is pretty meaningless.
 
This thread has jumped the shark. Time to close it or move it to GD.
 
Hmmm, typical. When talking about gun violence, gun holders immediately deflect. You don't want to talk about the senseless savage act by a gun owner in rail yard two days ago. You must immediately deflect to your talking points (liberal, California, BLM...).

Enjoy your guns. But can you do me a favor? Five minutes before you die, can you allow me to call you? I will simply ask how much money you spent on your various guns and then ask you in your entire life did you ever once use those guns to fend off marauding home invaders or did you ever once use those guns to defend your sovereignty against the tyrannical United States government and military? Get the point? What a waste of money you spent on your gun collection. Could have done something for your loved ones with that money instead of buying weapons that you use to fulfill your insane fantasies that you are Charles Bronson in DEATH WISH or a patriot defeating the tyranny of the Unites States government. Yes, your money spent on your guns that you never once used to save your life or your freedom was well spent, wasn't it?

Oh, and if you say you use your guns for target practice or hunting...
A) use a pellet gun
B) use a bow and arrow.
Both cheaper than firearms.
You the whole damn goof troop.

This thread was about Utah and its racist whites, I simply dropped some facts about Utah. You now try and turn this into a gun violence thread.

What I did here was run about 20 miles in your empty space for a head, lifted my sack and slapped it on your forehead as I ran it down across your eyelids and nose. The sweat dripped across your lips as I slapped the shaft hard as hell across your cheek. You now have a permanent JazzFanz mushroom tat to display, be proud.
 
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You the whole damn goof troop.

This thread was about Utah and its racist whites, I simply dropped some facts about Utah. You now try and turn this into a gun violence thread.

What I did here was run about 20 miles in your empty space for a head, lifted my sack and slapped it on your forehead as I ran it down across your eyelids and nose. The sweat dripped across your lips as slapped the shaft hard as hell across your cheek. You now have a permanent JazzFanz mushroom tat to display, be proud.

Once again deflect. And this time with childish insanity that should be studied by every psychologist in the nation.
Bye. I wasted enough time believing you were actually a sentient being.
 
I hate to be “that guy”, but the church is still doing as much harm as it is good when it comes to spreading hate and fear. Look at the recent church failings on gay issues such as the Prop 8 fiasco in California, followed up by inflicting undue pain and distress on Mormon children that come from same sex households.
We could also get into the black priesthood issues that still looms large in church history. Just because the priesthood decision was reversed in 1978 doesn’t mean a switch was magically flipped and everything was suddenly A-Ok for black people living in Utah. I agree with many in here that the racism taking place in Utah is born out of ignorance- quick side note, I didn’t attend school with a black person until Jr. High. That in and of itself set me up for a certain amount of ignorance and blind spots regardless of whether or not I could see that at the time. The fact still remains: Ignorance of the racial issues that have haunted this country since it’s inception is still racism.

I come from a family that is half LDS, half non-LDS and some of the finest people in my life, whom I love dearly are devout members. I really try to give the church the benefit of the doubt whenever I can but I really do feel that the above criticisms are fair and accurate. I don’t think anybody expects the church to be perfect but when you make a post about the church taking a “Very Forward Stance” when it comes to equality, well there’s probably not a very nice way to say it, but that’s just BS. You can’t pick and choose what groups of people you’re going to take a forward stance on while continuing to discriminate against others and then turn around and pat yourself on the back for being progressive.
Gotcha. Well again, I appreciate the time to spell out your thoughts to minimize assumptions the rest of us have to make to understand other’s arguments. With that being said I think there is some very important and subjective words you included that should be addressed.

There is a very important and significant distinction to be made in regards to accepting and endorsing in terms of equality. The LDS church (organization, not necessarily EVERY member) is very accepting. However, accepting is different than endorsing and the church will not endorse everyone’s actions, that would betray any allegiance to morality or their theology (this is true principle for any religion for that matter).

So, in regards to your claim that the church is discriminating against others, it is subjective. The church discriminates against matters of morality as defined in Christian doctrine (found in the Bible and LDS publications). However, the church doesn’t discriminate on sexual orientation, race, nationality, etc. if you’re gay that doesn’t change a thing as a church member. If you are gay and sexually active then that’s significant. If you’re straight it didn’t change a thing. If you’re straight and you’re sexually active outside of marriage that’s a problem (Obviously the church doesn’t recognize gay marriages in the spiritual realm, but the spiritual realm has addressed that for millennium and it would run contrary to foundational doctrine that would bankrupt the theology if it were betrayed).

Even though something is common in society doesn’t mean the church (or any religion) should change to accept that simply because of popularity. Fornication was declared wrong thousands of years ago and it’s very common today, but it’s still wrong if you believe the Christian theology (OT, NT, BM). Acting on gay sexual things was declared wrong thousands of years ago and even if it’s common today if you believe the Christian theology, then it’s still wrong. The LDS church doesn’t persecute people living out of wedlock, or those that are acting on homosexual desires, but it will affirm they are wrong. Everyone is invited to church, but the church does discriminate on morality topics for further spiritual commitments or whatever. But frankly, religions exist (IMO) primarily as moral dispensaries to give direction on how adherents can find purpose in life and understand the world around them. If religions were to take adherence to their own moral principles and throw it all out together, what would theology would they be left with? They’d become a comfort group without the claim to greater purpose and understanding that people strive for.
 
I'm very aware that the institutional church these days is more racially progressive than many of its members (as becomes clear whenever the Deseret News allows one of its NAACP partners to publish an opinion piece). But it's absolutely the case that it had a role to play in helping to create and perpetuate the racist attitudes of the area that have been slow to dissolve among some. There's plenty of good histories out there that document this.

I also think it's fair to say that the church's unwillingness to fully confront the racism in its own past may (for some) legitimate the larger American unwillingness to fully confront the US's racial past.
I agree that past
church leaders helped to perpetuate racist things, and even with some theological beliefs some leaders promoted I think they increased some racial division but I do not think they created any racism that wasn’t already present in society (especially at that time). So perpetuate? Yes. Advance/enhance? Yes. Create? Disagree.

In regards to addressing it I think they’ve done as good of a job as possible. It’s a very tough and hard subject. For me, I picture someone saying I can’t do something simply because I have blonde hair and white skin, and that would really really hurt. Especially in matters of religion. That’s to the soul kind of hurt for many. But, I doubt the LDS church will ever come forward and say they were misguided in the black priesthood ban if the 1800 and 1900s.

Since the LDS church believes it’s the same exact church that the prophets of the Bible have led throughout millennia, and the same one as when Christ was on the earth, then with that perspective in mind what I’m assuming you are asking ( That the LDS church should say the priesthood ban was false) then that would be to ask them to say that Christ banning the sharing of the gospel to the gentiles was wrong, or that Moses restricting the levitical priesthood to only the Levites was wrong (what about the other 11 tribes). I don’t have answers to these things, my main purpose is just to widen the perspective, the history, and look a little closer at the principles in play here. No matter what you believe it’s so easy to make sweeping generalizations that hurt any segment of society, so I think it’s worthwhile to examine what the principles are, how bullet proof is the logic, and what the repercussions for different views entails. Principles are important, sometimes applications are wrong but if you throw out the associated principle from which the application stemmed then you can find yourself in big logical trouble.
 
Gotcha. Well again, I appreciate the time to spell out your thoughts to minimize assumptions the rest of us have to make to understand other’s arguments. With that being said I think there is some very important and subjective words you included that should be addressed.

There is a very important and significant distinction to be made in regards to accepting and endorsing in terms of equality. The LDS church (organization, not necessarily EVERY member) is very accepting. However, accepting is different than endorsing and the church will not endorse everyone’s actions, that would betray any allegiance to morality or their theology (this is true principle for any religion for that matter).

So, in regards to your claim that the church is discriminating against others, it is subjective. The church discriminates against matters of morality as defined in Christian doctrine (found in the Bible and LDS publications). However, the church doesn’t discriminate on sexual orientation, race, nationality, etc. if you’re gay that doesn’t change a thing as a church member. If you are gay and sexually active then that’s significant. If you’re straight it didn’t change a thing. If you’re straight and you’re sexually active outside of marriage that’s a problem (Obviously the church doesn’t recognize gay marriages in the spiritual realm, but the spiritual realm has addressed that for millennium and it would run contrary to foundational doctrine that would bankrupt the theology if it were betrayed).

Even though something is common in society doesn’t mean the church (or any religion) should change to accept that simply because of popularity. Fornication was declared wrong thousands of years ago and it’s very common today, but it’s still wrong if you believe the Christian theology (OT, NT, BM). Acting on gay sexual things was declared wrong thousands of years ago and even if it’s common today if you believe the Christian theology, then it’s still wrong. The LDS church doesn’t persecute people living out of wedlock, or those that are acting on homosexual desires, but it will affirm they are wrong. Everyone is invited to church, but the church does discriminate on morality topics for further spiritual commitments or whatever. But frankly, religions exist (IMO) primarily as moral dispensaries to give direction on how adherents can find purpose in life and understand the world around them. If religions were to take adherence to their own moral principles and throw it all out together, what would theology would they be left with? They’d become a comfort group without the claim to greater purpose and understanding that people strive for.
I obviously touched a nerve but I don’t think I assumed anything. I’m not here to try and change anybody’s opinion on the church. The history is out there and people can decide themselves on what they think of it.
 
I obviously touched a nerve but I don’t think I assumed anything. I’m not here to try and change anybody’s opinion on the church. The history is out there and people can decide themselves on what they think of it.
Oh for sure on being entitled to opinions dog, haha I’m not trying to come off as aggressive I have all respect for differing opinions, I just like arguing about logic behind peoples opinions if I feel the logic isn’t sound or isn’t factually correct or anything of that nature. No I’ll feelings dude, I even argue logic with people that have the same opinion as me if I feel their logic doesn’t hold up so yeah, just a me thing. Have a good one dog!
 
I mean racism is straight up in the Mormon texts. Did they not believe black skin was a curse from God?

A lot of the "original" Mormons (I come from a original Mormon pioneer family)

The racism within the Mormon texts and teaching is a feature not a bug and they focus on it.

Even if they wouldn't outwardly say it, they definitely believe it.

Mix a jack Mormon that believes that kind of stuff with alcohol and a jazz game and the resulting concoction is the comments in game 2.

I feel like a lot of people are trying to play nice, but the Mormon church was one of the most racist brands of Christianity for a really long time...

Many of the Utah followers, especially like the family I come from...

They like their Mormonism "pure."

Which means white a delightsome.

To think there isn't a large contingent of Utah Mormons and Utah Mormon families like this to me in itself screams ignorance.
 
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