orangello
Well-Known Member
Great post. Really good points.
Hollinger REALLY high on the Jazz
- Thread starter margodydek
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Great post. Really good points.
D
Deleted member 848
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In my opinion, only two "elite" players are really needed, coupled with some great complimentary two-way pieces that can both play solid defense collectively, as well as carry a teams scoring when their main options are going through a drought (Think Shawn Marion in game 2; probably the most underrated performance of that game, and series altogether). Who were Dallas's "elite" players? Nowitzki, of course. Terry, Kidd, Marion and Chandler are all at a similar level, in terms of fringe-Allstarhood. I think three "elite" players are only ever needed if you don't have a great coach, or great offensive system (obviously the more the better, particularly in the Lakers' case). We definitely see this with OKC and Miami. At this stage of the game, I wouldn't really say that Ray Allen or Paul Pierce are "elite". However, a great offensive and defensive system allows their team to overachieve, spearheaded by ridiculous performances by Rajon Rondo.
So, at this stage of the game, and with our coach at his current level of development, we will most-definitely need three really really good players to be contenders. Fortunately, Ty is also basically a rookie head coach, and now has a full summer camp of things to figure out before the advent of his second full season. What happens if we trade Al or Sap for some sort of very-competent ball distributing PG (PLEASE TRADE AL FOR LILLARD! or hell, even Marshall)? All the sudden, Corbin can tailor our offense around a pick-and-roll game with Favors, slowly incorporate Kanter on the low-block, and have Gordon Hayward (a career >45% FG and >37% 3PP shooter) spacing the floor, along with a potential Poor mans DWade wreaking havoc on second units. Favors is already a shoe-in for being elite one day; we are literally one good pass-first PG and a shooting-specialist SF away from a very legitimate team.
Lillard
Hayward
Rush
Favors
Kanter
Millsap
Burks.
Who in the ****ing world would be able to keep up with us??
I will erect a statue of Kevin O'Connor in my front yard if he manages to trade Al Jefferson for a 6th-12th pick, landing us a PG.
So, at this stage of the game, and with our coach at his current level of development, we will most-definitely need three really really good players to be contenders. Fortunately, Ty is also basically a rookie head coach, and now has a full summer camp of things to figure out before the advent of his second full season. What happens if we trade Al or Sap for some sort of very-competent ball distributing PG (PLEASE TRADE AL FOR LILLARD! or hell, even Marshall)? All the sudden, Corbin can tailor our offense around a pick-and-roll game with Favors, slowly incorporate Kanter on the low-block, and have Gordon Hayward (a career >45% FG and >37% 3PP shooter) spacing the floor, along with a potential Poor mans DWade wreaking havoc on second units. Favors is already a shoe-in for being elite one day; we are literally one good pass-first PG and a shooting-specialist SF away from a very legitimate team.
Lillard
Hayward
Rush
Favors
Kanter
Millsap
Burks.
Who in the ****ing world would be able to keep up with us??
I will erect a statue of Kevin O'Connor in my front yard if he manages to trade Al Jefferson for a 6th-12th pick, landing us a PG.
orangello
Well-Known Member
I agree with what you are saying. I would consider it a miracle if we could get a first rounder before 20 without taking on long term salary.
I will keep my fingers crossed but I won't raise my hopes.
I'd love to get a pick between 30 and 35 (not instead of, just sayin'). No guaranteed salary and lots of talent there.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Some good points here. And maybe we only need 2 franchise guys and a bunch of "good" pieces. Maybe 2 franchise guys and one near franchise guy. I don't know.
But this final sentence here basically finalizes why I'm not as high on the Jazz as Hollinger. That doesn't mean that I don't think the Jazz are in a good position or have potential. All I'm saying is that when we're talking about building statues in our own front yards for moves that KOC must pull out of his *** so we can become contenders, that doesn't seem to agree with what Hollinger seems to be writing. Hollinger, granted, talks a bit about our cap situation and suggests that we'll need to make a splash there. But it's brief. The general feeling I got when reading that was that we WERE the OKC thunder with a core fixed. And that we're just an Ibaka or Perkins away from contending.
In reality... We have maybe one franchise piece and too many Ibaka's and Perkins (Kanter, Millsap, etc. Nice complimentary pieces but aren't franchise players). We need another Westbrook and Harden in order to truly contend (If Favors indeed turns out to be our Durant).
KOC has a LOT of work to do. He first needs to cut out the dead wood, (Earl, Raja, Al, Josh). Get 1-2 more franchise guys. Continue to collect complimentary pieces.
And we gotta hope that Ty Corbin improves a lot.... Like... A LOT.... Lets compare this to FT Shooting. Pops is basically a 90 % FT shooter. He's Nash. Ty is Andre Biedrins or Shaq. In order for us to contend in the next few years, Corbin needs to get up to at least 80 %. He needs to make Malone-like improvements to his game. Forgive me when I say, I'm not confident that Ty Corbin can and will make that much improvement. I hope he does... But Ty Corbin as coach is very questionable to me right now. Especially after he caved to Raja's bitching.
jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
I'm not that high on the Jazz. I was watching OKC vs. the Spurs and it occurred to me that the Jazz aren't even in the same league as those guys. The speed they play with is several levels faster than the Jazz, and the skill... Wow. They can hit shots, tough shots, contested shots, desperation shots. We struggle to hit open 18 footers.
By comparison we are unskilled and plodding.
We've got a LONG way to go to join the elite of the league IMHO.
By comparison we are unskilled and plodding.
We've got a LONG way to go to join the elite of the league IMHO.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
It's not like the 2008-09 Thunder team set the world on fire either.
Bottom line is the Jazz have 4 lottery picks entering either their 2nd or 3rd season and aged between 20-22 as well as a boatload of expiring contracts coming off the books in 2013. There's a ton of room for Utah to improve - both inhouse as well as with roster flexiblity - and it's a great position to be in.
jazzfan1971
Well-Known Member
Oh we are definitely in an enviable position as far as flexibility and potential goes, but, right now we have an unskilled and plodding team. And flexibility and potential doesn't necessarily mean skilled and fast down the road. We hope to join the elite of the league in a couple of years, but, we'll need major changes in personnel and development to do so.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
Many reasons for this. The Spurs core have been playing with each for about decade, they can probably read the minds of each other. Their new guys are relegated to very simpleton roles like standing in the corner and waiting for a three, so aren't in a position to really ever **** anything up on the offense. It's a brilliant plan by Pop. Eventually age will claim their core, and unless Splitter turns into Duncan, they will spend plenty of years rebuilding.
Then we have OKC, who just got incredibly lucky in the draft and now have 1 superstar and 3 all star level players, all young. There is no way to combat that, it can't be duplicated. We could send Corbin to coach them and their athleticism and talent alone would get them to the conference finals. The good news is they will lose one of either Harden or Ibaka. Both have played themselves into a max contract. OKC will try to lowball extend both of them for 10-12 million a year this summer and their agents will laugh in their face.
green
Well-Known Member
The Jazz have the talent, they don't have the coach.
I put Burk's stats on here already. He has a ton of potential. Here is Hayward year two vs Harden year two:
12 pts, 46% fg, 35% 3pt, 83% ft, 3 assists, 1 stl, 0.6 blk
12 pts, 44% fg, 35% 3pt, 84% ft, 2 assists, 1 stl, 0.3 blk
We are loaded with talent and potential. Burks' numbers compare very well to many very, very good scorers. Hayward's stats are nearly identical to Harden's who many here want to give max money too. Favors has more potential than any other player we have ever had, and Kanter is an elite rebounder, who is 19, with four years of basketball experience with two years where he couldn't play basketball. If you think those four don't have more potential than OKC, you are crazy.
We don't have a coach that can develop that talent. We don't have a good enough big man coach. Horny is a good coach for shooters, but that is it. It is too bad Johnson couldn't stay on as an assistant to run the offense.
I put Burk's stats on here already. He has a ton of potential. Here is Hayward year two vs Harden year two:
12 pts, 46% fg, 35% 3pt, 83% ft, 3 assists, 1 stl, 0.6 blk
12 pts, 44% fg, 35% 3pt, 84% ft, 2 assists, 1 stl, 0.3 blk
We are loaded with talent and potential. Burks' numbers compare very well to many very, very good scorers. Hayward's stats are nearly identical to Harden's who many here want to give max money too. Favors has more potential than any other player we have ever had, and Kanter is an elite rebounder, who is 19, with four years of basketball experience with two years where he couldn't play basketball. If you think those four don't have more potential than OKC, you are crazy.
We don't have a coach that can develop that talent. We don't have a good enough big man coach. Horny is a good coach for shooters, but that is it. It is too bad Johnson couldn't stay on as an assistant to run the offense.
bjunior
Well-Known Member
Agree, but I would add here and Big Al - he's not the guy to lead our talent. He is an offense ruiner and an defense disaster. Our young guns need an other type of game.
green
Well-Known Member
Agree completely. Al has to be gone. I can understand an argument for keeping Corbin one more year (Sloan quit, no preseason, etc), BUT Corbin had better have the Jazz with homecourt after this next year. They finished two games out of sixth, with losses to Toronto, GS, NO, Min (didn't they have a 16 pt lead in this game?), and NO. The Jazz should have had the sixth seed this year, that is inexcusable. That puts the ice Corbin is on paper thin. If you look at the Jazz as a sixth seed this year, That puts them three games out of home court. They should improve five games next year, and that gives them home court.
I think they improve 3 games just by getting rid of Al. How many games were we up 5-8 pts with 5 mins left, to have Jeff come in and we lose the game? At least three.
Scorpjazz
Well-Known Member
And he never won any with 20-30 points and 10-12 boards either? If we were up 5-8 points with 5 mins left did he help us get to that point or did we get there in spite of him? Seriously?
I am ALL for trading Al or, IMO, SAP more, for #6-#12 or that range. Go full tilt with the youth movement.
But the non stop Al whining is silly.
Yes, he is flawed, as Sap is also, but he helped us win more than he helped us lose. Again, IMO...obviously, I am in the serious minority with that thought. All Al defending aside, yes, if KOC can trade him for a good pick, or maybe a bonifide PG, do it. Im all in with the youth having our future.
I am ALL for trading Al or, IMO, SAP more, for #6-#12 or that range. Go full tilt with the youth movement.
But the non stop Al whining is silly.
Yes, he is flawed, as Sap is also, but he helped us win more than he helped us lose. Again, IMO...obviously, I am in the serious minority with that thought. All Al defending aside, yes, if KOC can trade him for a good pick, or maybe a bonifide PG, do it. Im all in with the youth having our future.
We would have been 66-0 without him. You must be blind if you can't see that.
shadler
Well-Known Member
How do you figure? Better hope favors and Enes develop fast enough for us to even make the playoffs without him.
Hantlers
Well-Known Member
Sarcasm is a strong point for you, isn't it?
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
It's not silly when you look at Al's salary... And the fact that him passing out of a triple team occurs about as often as CJ plays sober. I seriously have never seen a post player be such a ball stopper/ball hog in my life. Even Shaq could recognize double and triple teams and gave the rock up. And shaq was probably the one big in recent history who could still score with 5 players tackling him.