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Kirelenko in Trade talks!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Pearl said:
This dove tails into the fallacy of the "injury" argument. The injury argument is based on a the fallacy that future injuries are even remotely predictable. The game is chaos and random as are injuries. The only injuries that are suspect are those chronic in nature. Think the Harp knee that didn't stop the Jazz from flushing 6 million down the toilet. Would you rather have Williams for a random 65 games a year or 82 games or Ray Felton?

Furthermore, I am not cap expert but you aren't trading 18 million for 9 million, you are trading 18 million for 9 million this year plus QRoss plus whatever else comes back plus the additional trash you have signed (watson,Elson,etc) or are going to sign plus 9 million next year subtract whatever LT savings are projected. Not sure, but at least that is closer to the truth than what nonsense 1320 is pushing.

The upside is the Boris/Sloan mixture has wonderful upside potential.
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For what it's worth, this is the likely salary cap angle the Jazz are playing NEXT year. The Jazz are already committed to 50 million in salary next year without AK. Add CJ and it's 54. So they'd only have approximately 5 million to play with. But by present CBA rules, their Cap Space would need to be under their exceptions (MLE, BE) in order to use it. They wouldn't have enough. So they'd only get the MLE to sign an FA. And that puts them in the same pool with every team competing with MLE's. With Diaw on the books, they still have their MLE, and they get Diaw + the MLE while still being under the LT.

ALTERNATIVELY, the Jazz could have looked to sign AK to an extension and kept their MLE, too. That would have been the angle I would have played, but admittedly it's riskier. If you lose AK to FA, then you only have the MLE to replace him.

Kicky said it best, anyway. This clearly isn't a basketball decision because AK is a vastly superior player. But you could argue its a good/better/lesser of all evils business decision. But if I was GM, I'd be talking to AK about a reasonable extension.
 
NUMBERICA said:
THERE'S ANOTHER YEAR OF DIAW'S SALARY, in addition to the fact that it likely makes the Jazz LESS flexible in the following year, not more.
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I just posted this in my response to Pearl but I'll reiterate I think this is actually a fallacy. In the simplest terms, teams have to be way under the salary cap in order to use Cap Space. Unless I'm mistaken, the current CBA stipulates that you have be under by all your exceptions. The MLE and BE (if it applies) equate to roughly 8 million dollars. As long as you're under enough, you can use that Cap Space freely to sign FA's. If you aren't, you're restricted to MLE's and BE's.

In Jazz Terms: They're at 50 next year. With CJ 54. They'd only have 5 million tops to play with, but by the CBA they'd be restricted to the MLE and BE. This is what Milwuakee did when they overpaid Salmons and traded for Maggette. They took players that "limited" their flexibility, but they weren't players they could sign on the open market. On the open market, they would have lost both and got one MLE as replacement.

There is a business reason for doing this. But there is an alternative. And that alternative is to get serious about extending AK. They know Diaw isn't AK, but maybe they like the fact that Diaw fills a gap for 2 years whereas AK might need a 4 year deal to resign. Finally, I'm against this. Resign AK, get the MLE and that's the best option.
 
My point on flexibility or wherever is not rooted in cap space. There are a lot of ways to acquire players and a lot of ways to construct a payroll that doesn't have to do with free agent signings. Having Diaw on the books for 2011 simply makes the Jazz less flexible if the Jazz are constantly going to pull the small-market victim card and be throwing assets overboard with salary. And that's all besides that the new CBA will likely be stricter to both teams and players to reign in spending.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Sirkickyass has said everything and more that I want to say/reiterate. But I want to echo and add to what he said and Pearl said about finances. 1320 is reporting the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM amount the Jazz could get, which would mean a record-level payout to non-LT payers for 2011 but also assumes there's a lockout for the 2011-2012 season. The reality is that the Jazz will be taking back more salary than just Diaw, the payout won't be that high AND THAT THERE'S ANOTHER YEAR OF DIAW'S SALARY, in addition to the fact that it likely makes the Jazz LESS flexible in the following year, not more. If Diaw himself was an expiring this would be a different conversation. But we don't know what impact that $9 million is going to have next year.

This whole thing stinks, top (Millers) to bottom (Locke). 1320 is nothing but a propagandha machine.

I have two hopes;
1) That this falls apart, or
2) That the Jazz have REALLY done their homework on this one and KNOW something the dissenters (most of us) don't.
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A big Whatever on the numbers, Numberica. Whether the Jazz save $5 million or $9 million or $19 million, that's real money. It's tough to see a scenario where losing AK in exchange for an overweight Frog and/or some dude named Quinton doesn't make Utah worse, but it's understandable if they do it--and maybe only confirms that they have been trying to do it for years.

FWIW Q-Ross might soften the blow. Somebody thinks that he's a poor man's Bruce Bowen.
https://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/10230/who-is-quinton-ross

This guy pegs QR as a top 10 defensive player recently as of last summer.
https://celticshub.com/2009/06/16/your-next-backup-for-paul-pierce-quinton-ross/

QR's defense, though, doesn't show up prominently in 82games or in the box score.

Two years ago, when he played 68 games for the Grizzlies, he had a positive on-court +/- but a pathtetic individual +/-
https://www.82games.com/0809/0809MEM.HTM

Doesn't appear to have ever been a great shooter, but he was logging a steal or so every 30 minutes when he was on the Paper Clips. Three or four seasons back.

If Utah lands Ross, it's possible that they will have three defense-oriented, slightly over-the-hill guards in Bell, Ross, and Watson.

I like half of that equation--the defense part--but not the other half (age + less scoring).

Maybe Deron will like that QR is from Dallas. And perhaps Deron and Diaw can bond over French fries.
 
NUMBERICA said:
My point on flexibility or wherever is not rooted in cap space. There are a lot of ways to acquire players and a lot of ways to construct a payroll that doesn't have to do with free agent signings. Having Diaw on the books for 2011 simply makes the Jazz less flexible if the Jazz are constantly going to pull the small-market victim card and be throwing assets overboard with salary. And that's all besides that the new CBA will likely be stricter to both teams and players to reign in spending.
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Your point is totally valid. But if I'm KOC, I'm looking at next year as a situation where a void needs to be filled at the wing. I want options. Having somebody on the books means I get that player and my MLE. Not having anyone on the books means I only get the MLE to fill the void. I think that's how KOC is looking at it. And with Diaw next year, they don't have to throw any assets overboard. By the same token, with AK on the books next year at 8 or 9, they wouldn't have to either.

BUT, with Diaw off the books in 2012, and AK not on the books at all, they're sitting at 40 million as long as Deron picks up his option. And they also have MASSIVE cap space to negotiate with him. This might be a major factor in this (right or wrong.) If Deron's looking to leave, KOC can tell him they can sign anyone he wants to play with. We could have one of those signing parties in Utah WITH Big Al, Sap, and Hayward already under contract. I'm not saying this is good strategy, but it's strategy.
 
slc said:
Maybe KOC is trying to throw Price in the deal. Don't need him if Jazz get Ross.
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Don't need him if Jazz don't get Ross. Keeping a 6'1" good guy around for SG defense isn't worth it. I like Price a lot and kudos to him for dunking over Boozer in order to get himself back into Utah. But he's never figured out how to run the offense, and his shooting is off and on. I, too, would prefer Ross's length, even if it comes at the price of age (and the price of Price).
 
I've been a fan of AK's and he does have a big impact on the team when he's playing to his potential even if his stats are not gaudy. However, it is very reasonable to me to attempt get $10-$18 savings for him if possible.

I think the Jazz are not just salary dumping but are re-tooling. It's time to get a bunch of new guys in and try them out. AK will have a huge games against the Jazz, becuase he will be motivated, and prove that he's just not that into basketball that much to have him around.

I do think that Raja has been consulted and will be able to perfectly assess if Diaw is a good fit for Jazz and Jerry.

What i don't know is the Boris of today. I recall him as a Sun and he was a good player for them and if he returns to tthat form, would be worthy of this trade.

And Numberica - i'm shocked that your shocked that 1320 is soft on the Jazz.
 
I don't think it's far fetched to expect solid numbers from Boris in the jazz offense. he shot too many 3's in a piss poor charlotte offense last year but still had a 48% shooting percentage. he's a great passing big man. he's got long arms to rebound the basketball. he can play multiple positions. there are a lot of positives to take from his game.
 
calijazz said:
I don't think the proposed deal is horrible by any means. But I don't think it improves the team either.

Players have an amazing way of staying relatively healthy when a new contract is on the line. Look at Boozer last season. Certainly no guarantees though, you are correct.
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That's how I feel about it. Not a great deal, but hardly some horrid thing that's going to kill the Jazz's season. Who knows, maybe Diaw will flourish in this system.
 
Nate505 said:
That's how I feel about it. Not a great deal, but hardly some horrid thing that's going to kill the Jazz's season. Who knows, maybe Diaw will flourish in this system.
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I'm not necessarily concerned with the offense, defense has been the definable weakness of this team for the past 5+ years. And that's besides that AK's mastery of the system is especially valuable this year with all of the new faces to the team. Diaw becomes another guy that has to learn it with one less guy to implement it and teach it.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are guys on this site who could manage the personnel of the Jazz better than the FO.
 
write4u said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again, there are guys on this site who could manage the personnel of the Jazz better than the FO.
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I HIGHLY doubt that. Its easy to post nonsense like this on an anonymous message board, but its still nonsense.
 
Why do you doubt it. Just the draft alone, if you took a consensus from this board, the Jazz would've gotten better players over the last ten years.

More than most thought that the Maynor and Brewer dumps were just that. And Matthews, well sure, it was too high to match, but if we had been more proactive before the Portland offer, we probably could've signed Matthews for a reasonable figure. We didn't even make an offer to Korver. So if Hayward doesn't pan out, that's also going to be egg in our face. And now the AK debacle. This is all in the last year since Greg took over. What a Greg-hole!
 
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