The story behind the Utah Jazz’s front-office shake-up, and why it happened now

[Handlogten's Heros]

For those of you who still don't think DL messed up the math or that its impossible for this type of thing to happen... let me just tell you how this goes:

- There is a front office person who likely is in charge of cap math and planning.... may not be all they do but it is something they do. Who knows how good they are, but lets assume they identified the issue of "we are going to be really close to the tax if we use the full MLE and retain our guys". He brings up said issue to DL and Zanik (an agent... not a capologist). They say thank you for bringing this up.

-DL then go and meet with Favs, JC, and they say negotiate a number. Its a little high but JZ and DL want to close the deal.

- The cap accountant (probably a guy named Melvin) then says... "hey guys... we have a cap problem here... we will be just over the tax". DL and Zanik then say "Hey Melvin... that's what we pay you then big bucks for... make it work." Melvin then goes to his desk... thinks we can trade Tucker to get some cap relief but its not enough. DL and Zanik do it... but its still a math problem of how to make it work.

- DL starts to catch on this is a real problem... goes to Ryan "Hey Ryan that ****ing bean counter Murray or Murphy or whatever the hell his name is says we are over the tax and can't do much about it. He really messed this up." Ryan then goes... "you mean to tell me we traded like 15 second round picks and backup centers... so that we could sign a good backup center... and now we are still in the tax?"

- Rift starts....

- Ryan then talks with buddy Danny Ainge about this.... Danny to Ryan "Look Ryan DL is a great dude. I've loved taking advantage.... errrrr working with him over the years, but he's more a touchy feely relationship guy and doesn't get bogged down by the details... he also has a weird obsession with hand pads... gives the longest handshakes."

- Resentment builds.

- Team doesn't win, has clear holes, is over the tax, Ryan now sees the full implications of his luxury tax issue to keep this **** together....

-DL steps down to an advisory role he has been thinking about for years.

 

[fishonjazz]

If we basically just run it back, then is that a sign of too much conservatism and lack of a new consensus?

Or another option. The choice that the new group all want. I remember wade having a great time on the sideline and being really happy with this roster when we were kicking *** with a healthy team. Maybe he wants that again.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The next two seasons will reveal soooooo much. I wonder how much of that two year interval we’ll be able to predict based on what is revealed in just this offseason. The outcome with Mike is huge. How we’re able to pivot into a more flexible roster from this corner we’ve painted ourselves into is also very revealing...

Just how savvy is this new group that’ll be congealing? How big of a voice will Snyder have, and/or how warm is his seat?

If we basically just run it back, then is that a sign of too much conservatism and lack of a new consensus?

If Ainge is hired, I hope someone asks him in the press conference, "what kind of more opportunities do you think you'd have to work with now if this franchise had a $30M TPE available to them 4 years ago?"

So I have bagged on Ainge... but here is the deal with him. He is an emotionless *******... we kind of need that right now. Someone who isn't afraid to trade Pierce, KG, and IT after they have given the franchise their best. He's shrewd... and we need it. I think he is good at the detail stuff that DL seemed to **** up constantly.

Someone that says " I don't care that the fans love Favs and him coming back is a big story... we need his cap money for different things."

I think Ryan will spend to a point. I think we retain Mike because the non-Mike options are rough. I also think Mike has less of a market than some think and have a hard time thinking he will uproot his family just to leave. If we offer similar money to what is out there I think he stays. Dallas and NY are on different timelines and I think they spend money elsewhere. The Lakers will have a hard time doing a sign and trade for him without gutting the roster to stay below the apron. Miami would probably prefer a smaller one year deal on Dragic to a bigger multiyear deal on Mike and they likely have their sights set much higher.

Its the other moves I am curious to see... where do we cut salary... Favs, Bojan, JC? Ryan won't cut a check for $50M for luxury tax imo. I also think he won't let the new GM roll with 7 G league guys so we will find a few additional minimum veterans.

I trust Ryan but its blind trust and the owner operator model hasn't worked well in the NBA or any other sports franchise that I can think of.

 

[NAOS]

Or another option. The choice that the new group all want. I remember wade having a great time on the sideline and being really happy with this roster when we were kicking *** with a healthy team. Maybe he wants that again.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

You quoted a question... then gave an answer that I never excluded from the possibilities..... because I merely asked a question.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You quoted a question... then gave an answer that I never excluded from the possibilities..... because I merely asked a question.

Running it back isn't an option. Keeping the majority of the core pieces is likely the best option and adding in a couple established or blossoming role players to the mix. If they can do that and Favs is the only casualty I think that is the best you can hope for. If Bojan or JC net more in a trade than I think they could... then they might make bigger changes.

Mid-season or next offseason is when the big changes could happen depending on how things are going. Rudy is not eligible to be traded until October... that is the monster pivot on the horizon if things go sideways.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

For those of you who still don't think DL messed up the math or that its impossible for this type of thing to happen... let me just tell you how this goes:

- There is a front office person who likely is in charge of cap math and planning.... may not be all they do but it is something they do. Who knows how good they are, but lets assume they identified the issue of "we are going to be really close to the tax if we use the full MLE and retain our guys". He brings up said issue to DL and Zanik (an agent... not a capologist). They say thank you for bringing this up.

-DL then go and meet with Favs, JC, and they say negotiate a number. Its a little high but JZ and DL want to close the deal.

- The cap accountant (probably a guy named Melvin) then says... "hey guys... we have a cap problem here... we will be just over the tax". DL and Zanik then say "Hey Melvin... that's what we pay you then big bucks for... make it work." Melvin then goes to his desk... thinks we can trade Tucker to get some cap relief but its not enough. DL and Zanik do it... but its still a math problem of how to make it work.

- DL starts to catch on this is a real problem... goes to Ryan "Hey Ryan that ****ing bean counter Murray or Murphy or whatever the hell his name is says we are over the tax and can't do much about it. He really messed this up." Ryan then goes... "you mean to tell me we traded like 15 second round picks and backup centers... so that we could sign a good backup center... and now we are still in the tax?"

- Rift starts....

- Ryan then talks with buddy Danny Ainge about this.... Danny to Ryan "Look Ryan DL is a great dude. I've loved taking advantage.... errrrr working with him over the years, but he's more a touchy feely relationship guy and doesn't get bogged down by the details... he also has a weird obsession with hand pads... gives the longest handshakes."

- Resentment builds.

- Team doesn't win, has clear holes, is over the tax, Ryan now sees the full implications of his luxury tax issue to keep this **** together....

-DL steps down to an advisory role he has been thinking about for years.

Being a "****ing bean counter" I know how this goes sometimes. You present all the data... give all the numbers... and people just look at you like a dream killer and ignore you. I can't tell you how many times I've broken stuff down for folks, had them ignore me, and then had them fail. There are times when it works out too... but guys don't always listen to the spreadsheet guy.

 

[NAOS]

Running it back isn't an option. Keeping the majority of the core pieces is likely the best option and adding in a couple established or blossoming role players to the mix. If they can do that and Favs is the only casualty I think that is the best you can hope for. If Bojan or JC net more in a trade than I think they could... then they might make bigger changes.

Mid-season or next offseason is when the big changes could happen depending on how things are going. Rudy is not eligible to be traded until October... that is the monster pivot on the horizon if things go sideways.

Yeah, I’m with you. Although I think losing Favs and returning the rest of the top 8 still counts as “running it back.” I think a JC and/or Bojan trade obviously counts as a real shake-up.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah, I’m with you. Although I think losing Favs and returning the rest of the top 8 still counts as “running it back.” I think a JC and/or Bojan trade obviously counts as a real shake-up.

That’s fair. I think we likely are running it back in that case. I think it’s the best move... we’d no more if we had filled out the roster differently this year... but we don’t know what it looks like if we add some of the things we can on the fringes... and those things but us in the ***.

 

[That1UtahFan]

he also has a weird obsession with hand pads... gives the longest handshakes."

I’m dead

 

[infection]

Being a "****ing bean counter" I know how this goes sometimes. You present all the data... give all the numbers... and people just look at you like a dream killer and ignore you. I can't tell you how many times I've broken stuff down for folks, had them ignore me, and then had them fail. There are times when it works out too... but guys don't always listen to the spreadsheet guy.

I’ve got some huge bean counting things to vent about with regard to my current situation that I’m leaving and it’s absolutely stupid how bureaucracy gets on the way of making sound financial decisions because each bean counter is only responsible for counting certain beans, and they need to make sure that you don’t alter one too much even if you’re having a massive net across the system. As an accountant you may find this more stupid than normal.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I’ve got some huge bean counting things to vent about with regard to my current situation that I’m leaving and it’s absolutely stupid how bureaucracy gets on the way of making sound financial decisions because each bean counter is only responsible for counting certain beans, and they need to make sure that you don’t alter one too much even if you’re having a massive net across the system. As an accountant you may find this more stupid than normal.

Luckily I’m tangentially related to true accounting... but I still get involved in some things where the details guys get ignored because the big picture guys are cavalier and think details aren’t important. My father in law the land developer is the one I think of most with this. He will even tell you I’m right like 80% of the time with this stuff, but he also ignores what I tell him 100% of the time. I just think it’s kinda naive to think because the Jazz are a bug organization something like this couldn’t possibly slip through the cracks... when sometimes it’s the opposite... big organizations can separate duties and responsibilities in such a way that it creates huge cracks for things to slip through.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nah I just thought it was hilarious... he wasn’t mean but just very dismissive and really scoffed at the idea that someone thought he was going to get cut. He actually did a lot of jobs in the front office. He got 42 years for a reason I’m sure.

why do we give NWG the benefit of the doubt and not Shaq? Just curious. Seem to remember once Quin decides a guy can’t play and other nba teams don’t sign him that it’s obvious the guy sucks.

1. We've seen Shaq in plenty of NBA minutes
2. Shaq never fit what the Jazz wanted to do offensively. I just don't think small players who cant shoot or playmake have any spot in Snyder's system.
3. Shaq was worse than a 2-way rookie who played the same position.

And I'm not really giving him the benefit of the doubt, just saying it would be interesting to see what he could do.

 

[homeytennis]

A couple of things have bubbled up in the past couple of days. I saw a blurb where former two-way player Tyler Cavanaugh signed a deal in Eastern Europe and the coach there is Martin Schiller who was his coach with the Stars. The guy shot 41% from 3 with the Stars and his coach there lobbied to sign him. I know it's not the NBA but the Minivan is the only success right now from the two way deals and that was after the Pacers and Warriors waived him. Also JWF was named player of the week in whatever league he is playing in. The point I'm trying to make is that the Jazz "player development" program with the Stars is a sham. Anyone signing a two way with the Jazz was signing his death warrant. If I were Forrest and Brantley I would be very nervous right now. They are looking at the headstones of Nate Wolters, Eric Griffin, Erick McCree, Naz, Cavanaugh, JWF, Willie Reed and Isiah Cousins. Who decided these guys sucked? Was it DL, Quin or a combination? Running the organization like this leaves little hope for guys playing for the Stars. Would any of the guys mentioned been any worse than our deep bench? I doubt it.

 

[jom2003]

A couple of things have bubbled up in the past couple of days. I saw a blurb where former two-way player Tyler Cavanaugh signed a deal in Eastern Europe and the coach there is Martin Schiller who was his coach with the Stars. The guy shot 41% from 3 with the Stars and his coach there lobbied to sign him. I know it's not the NBA but the Minivan is the only success right now from the two way deals and that was after the Pacers and Warriors waived him. Also JWF was named player of the week in whatever league he is playing in. The point I'm trying to make is that the Jazz "player development" program with the Stars is a sham. Anyone signing a two way with the Jazz was signing his death warrant. If I were Forrest and Brantley I would be very nervous right now. They are looking at the headstones of Nate Wolters, Eric Griffin, Erick McCree, Naz, Cavanaugh, JWF, Willie Reed and Isiah Cousins. Who decided these guys sucked? Was it DL, Quin or a combination? Running the organization like this leaves little hope for guys playing for the Stars. Would any of the guys mentioned been any worse than our deep bench? I doubt it.

I think these guys just sucked as a matter of fact. When you are truly a great player, your fate can't be decided by anyone. PJ Tucker was buried on the bench in his rookie season with Toronto so he had to leave for Europe to make a living. But he played so well that he came back a few years later and established himself in the league as one of the best role players around.

I mean guys like Nate Wolters and Eric Griffin left the league years ago, if they are good why haven't they made the come back yet?

In many ways of professional sports, it's either you are the guy or you are not. Can't always put the blame on the development team when the guys they've been working with just aren't good enough players. These guys were late second or undrafted for a reason.

Like I mentioned before, Suns have like 7 or 8 former lottery picks on their roster right now. These guys even in the worst case scenario of their development could give you decent backup minutes, which would've been the best case scenario for guys like Nate Wolters, Eric Griffin, Erick McCree, Naz, Cavanaugh, JWF, Willie Reed and Isiah Cousins, etc.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

A couple of things have bubbled up in the past couple of days. I saw a blurb where former two-way player Tyler Cavanaugh signed a deal in Eastern Europe and the coach there is Martin Schiller who was his coach with the Stars. The guy shot 41% from 3 with the Stars and his coach there lobbied to sign him. I know it's not the NBA but the Minivan is the only success right now from the two way deals and that was after the Pacers and Warriors waived him. Also JWF was named player of the week in whatever league he is playing in. The point I'm trying to make is that the Jazz "player development" program with the Stars is a sham. Anyone signing a two way with the Jazz was signing his death warrant. If I were Forrest and Brantley I would be very nervous right now. They are looking at the headstones of Nate Wolters, Eric Griffin, Erick McCree, Naz, Cavanaugh, JWF, Willie Reed and Isiah Cousins. Who decided these guys sucked? Was it DL, Quin or a combination? Running the organization like this leaves little hope for guys playing for the Stars. Would any of the guys mentioned been any worse than our deep bench? I doubt it.

Cavanaugh > Thomas

 

[LogGrad98]

So I have bagged on Ainge... but here is the deal with him. He is an emotionless *******... we kind of need that right now. Someone who isn't afraid to trade Pierce, KG, and IT after they have given the franchise their best. He's shrewd... and we need it. I think he is good at the detail stuff that DL seemed to **** up constantly.

Someone that says " I don't care that the fans love Favs and him coming back is a big story... we need his cap money for different things."

I think Ryan will spend to a point. I think we retain Mike because the non-Mike options are rough. I also think Mike has less of a market than some think and have a hard time thinking he will uproot his family just to leave. If we offer similar money to what is out there I think he stays. Dallas and NY are on different timelines and I think they spend money elsewhere. The Lakers will have a hard time doing a sign and trade for him without gutting the roster to stay below the apron. Miami would probably prefer a smaller one year deal on Dragic to a bigger multiyear deal on Mike and they likely have their sights set much higher.

Its the other moves I am curious to see... where do we cut salary... Favs, Bojan, JC? Ryan won't cut a check for $50M for luxury tax imo. I also think he won't let the new GM roll with 7 G league guys so we will find a few additional minimum veterans.

I trust Ryan but its blind trust and the owner operator model hasn't worked well in the NBA or any other sports franchise that I can think of.

The owner operator model got Dallas a championship. It was really after they won that Cuban faded out. He accomplished his goals with his toy and moved on to other things.

 

[infection]

The owner operator model got Dallas a championship. It was really after they won that Cuban faded out. He accomplished his goals with his toy and moved on to other things.

When we win a championship I may move on to other things, too. The equivalent of having to light up a cigarette.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

There are times I think HT is a troll, but his ability to remember these dudes is incredible.

Still super sad Stanton Kidd never got more minutes during his short time on the roster.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The owner operator model got Dallas a championship. It was really after they won that Cuban faded out. He accomplished his goals with his toy and moved on to other things.

Cuban faded out? In what way?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The owner operator model got Dallas a championship. It was really after they won that Cuban faded out. He accomplished his goals with his toy and moved on to other things.

I don't know about him moving on... sounds like he is very much still involved. Donnie was there a long time because he didn't mind Cuban pulling the puppet strings.