We Need to Talk About Kevin

[green]

Numbermerica and margo keep saying this. My point is, what has KOC done to show you he won't be successful? He has signed big FA when we needed them. He has drafted well. He has made exceptional trades when needed. What has he done that tells you guys that he won't continue to be successful?

 

[NUMBERICA]

Success is subjective. He's done a good job, but I'd say that never really producing a team that could finish top-4 in the conference says something.

I hope that no longer having Larry and Jerry to bogart his **** will show us who KOC really is, and that it's everything we've been waiting for for so long.

 

[vj_74]

It is the same crap over and over with threads like these. KOC apologists blaming everything that went wrong on Sloan and Larry while KOC bashers acting as if KOC worked totally independently in rebuilding this team during Deron era. No scope for middle ground here. And there is no frickin proof anywhere on most of the things that is being spewed here. Let us just try to go by results. I have no way of speculating who influenced whose decision and whether KOC had the upper hand or not in each of the decisions made in the last decade. All I can do is look at what was done and what was done is'nt certainly enough to proclaim KOC as a genius. So far he has come across as someone who makes moves when there is a crisis happening, but otherwise seems content to build a "competetive" team which would rely mostly on "internal improvement" year after year. I dont see any blueprints being made to build a championship team.If you want to blame all that on ownership or Sloan go ahead. But I have'nt seen any proof yet that KOC is this great GM who can very easily build a championship contending team if only the coach and owner would stay out of the way. If that happens, I'l be happy to come here and doff my hat to him.

 

[Brown Notes]

KOC will be remembered for two things. The DWill trade and his hiring of Corbin. What the dude has done with the roster so far has been incredibly positive. KOC is going into a draft situation right now having an absurd amount of trade pieces and assets. If he holds tight he still has a great deal of flexibility to make trades or sign FA. I am positive that in player acquisition KOC is pretty close to the gold standard. What we have to find out is if Corbin is good enough. I'm convinced that Utah will not be paying two coaches so Corbs will last through his tenure.


So from my POV KOC is tied very closely to his hire of Corbin. Of course it's possible that the team will be full of talent and some other guy will come in and take flight with but IMO if Corbin isn't capable we are in for several years of ugh. I do not believe there will be a firing in Utah, at least not this year.

 

[Weezur]

KOC will be remembered for two things. The DWill trade and his hiring of Corbin. What the dude has done with the roster so far has been incredibly positive. KOC is going into a draft situation right now having an absurd amount of trade pieces and assets. If he holds tight he still has a great deal of flexibility to make trades or sign FA. I am positive that in player acquisition KOC is pretty close to the gold standard. What we have to find out is if Corbin is good enough. I'm convinced that Utah will not be paying two coaches so Corbs will last through his tenure.


So from my POV KOC is tied very closely to his hire of Corbin. Of course it's possible that the team will be full of talent that some other guy will come in and take flight with but IMO if Corbin isn't capable we are in for several years of ugh. I do not believe there will be a firing in Utah, at least not this year.

This.
KOC's biggest mistake in the new generation might be Corbin. Let's just hope the offense gets some flow and movement next year.

 

[freakazoid]

KOC has done a good job overall, but you can't give credit for the Deron trade, and then ignore the fact that our FO dropped the ball in a big way in their lack of a follow-up move this year. How much of that is actually KOC's fault, however, is questionable. I blame ownership and Jerry Sloan. Especially Sloan.

 

[freakazoid]

KOC is going into a draft situation right now having an absurd amount of trade pieces and assets.

LOL, no.

Actually, we missed out on two lotto picks by a couple games. Then we would have an absurd amount. If you're counting the GS pick and our #13, they have nowhere near the trade value. Besides that, I seriously doubt that Utah wants to be trading away future firsts. The other advantage of getting those picks this year, is we could decide whether or not we want to keep an available player before trading him away. You don't get to do that when trading future firsts. With the new CBA, I seriously doubt Utah is going to be trading future 1st round picks.

 

[YB85]

Did KOC hire Corbin?

 

[margodydek]

Was this movie any good?

 

[InGameStrategy]

I consider myself a KOC apologist. I've generally backed the majority of moves he's made. However, I figure the man has this offseason and the next to get us into contention (top 4 in the West). The guy has been given 4 top 10 picks in two years (I know Burks was 12, but I consider him a top 10 guy last year), and by next year that number could be 6 picks (if he trades into this draft and we get GS's next yr). So with that amount of lottery picks and the amount of cap space that 29 other teams would dream of having coming his way next offseason, the guy has to figure things out by then, right? How long do you think his leash is? If we're still fighting for the 8th seed after next season, the guy has to be gone right?

My opinion is that the dominos need to start falling this year. He can't sit on his thumb and wait till next season and hope he hits a homerun in FA and the GS pick falls between 8 & 10.

Thoughts?

KOC's in-game adjustments and substitution patterns have been terrible!

No enforcement of defense--or effort.

[Oh wait; wrong rant.]

 

[freakazoid]

My point is, what has KOC done to show you he won't be successful?

The draft of 2004 and the lockout season of 2011-12 I would consider complete failures. For the most part, he's done just fine, but you can't give credit for success if you're not going to acknowledge failure. I can't stand posters like KOC BEGONE who nitpick every single freaking move, including trades other teams made that we should have somehow been involved in, but claims like the one Cyrone made absolving the GM of all culpabiltity are just as silly. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

KOC deserves a ton of credit for putting himself in a position to draft Deron. I give him more credit for that than for actually swooping in and taking advantage of NJ when they missed out on Melo. He's done a great job of putting this team where they are. However, he hasn't finished the job by any means, and the strategy of playing for an 8th seed, when it involved all the implications that it did this year, was a big step backward in building this team, IMO. Last year I would have called him a great GM, but after the way things were handled this year, I'd still say he's good, but in real danger over being considered nothing but average, depending on how things turn out over the next few years.

 

[Hartsock]

The draft of 2004 and the lockout season of 2011-12 I would consider complete failures. For the most part, he's done just fine, but you can't give credit for success if you're not going to acknowledge failure. I can't stand posters like KOC BEGONE who nitpick every single freaking move, including trades other teams made that we should have somehow been involved in, but claims like the one Cyrone made absolving the GM of all culpabiltity are just as silly. As always, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

KOC deserves a ton of credit for putting himself in a position to draft Deron. I give him more credit for that than for actually swooping in and grabbing taking advantage of NJ when they missed out on Melo. He's done a great job of putting this team where they are. However, he hasn't finished the job by any means, and the strategy of playing for an 8th seed, when it involved all the implications that it did this year, was a big step backward in building this team, IMO. Last year I would have called him a great GM, but after the way things were handled this year, I'd still say he's good, but in real danger over being considered nothing but average, depending on how things turn out over the next few years.

Wait this season was a complete failure? Are we talking about the Jazz still?

 

[freakazoid]

Wait this season was a complete failure? Are we talking about the Jazz still?

Ok, maybe not complete. Just mostly. If selling tickets is the goal, then this season was a big success. If building a championship team is the goal, then yes, we'd be in a much better position right now if we had accepted this as a rebuilding year, instead of playing for an 8th seed. And yes, I'm aware that maybe things will still turn out ok in a year from now. That doesn't change the position that we are currently in.

 

[Brown Notes]

LOL, no.

Actually, we missed out on two lotto picks by a couple games. Then we would have an absurd amount. If you're counting the GS pick and our #13, they have nowhere near the trade value. Besides that, I seriously doubt that Utah wants to be trading away future firsts. The other advantage of getting those picks this year, is we could decide whether or not we want to keep an available player before trading him away. You don't get to do that when trading future firsts. With the new CBA, I seriously doubt Utah is going to be trading future 1st round picks.

I think you are looking at this heavily weighted by your anger at KOC for not losing on purpose.

Yes, Utah would have more value with the 2 picks this year. Of course more than picks from 2013. There is still a huge amount of flexibility here. Utah isn't bogged down by anything worse than Raja. Jefferson, Sap, and Harris all have good value, especially to teams looking to be able to jump on the '13 FA market. Obviously the young guys have great value. If the CBA makes picks worth a lot for Utah who isn't in cap trouble they are worth even more to a team looking to get younger and cheaper.

I doubt our GM would refuse to at least listen to offers for anything not named Favors.

 

[billyshelby]

The irony of KOC's performance is that he's made great moves to put us in the position we're in, but he'll only be judged on what he does from here. I've got faith in him.

 

[orangello]

Ok, maybe not complete. Just mostly. If selling tickets is the goal, then this season was a big success. If building a championship team is the goal, then yes, we'd be in a much better position right now if we had accepted this as a rebuilding year, instead of playing for an 8th seed. And yes, I'm aware that maybe things will still turn out ok in a year from now. That doesn't change the position that we are currently in.

Good point. We could be looking great going into this draft with the talent we already have and what we could be adding.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

For me the final move KOC needs to make for him to get an A+ is just finish off the core. That will either be done in the coming weeks in a trade to move up in the draft, while getting rid of Jefferson, Millsap, or Harris, or will be done in 2013 when all of those guys expire and we sign a big name FA along with some solid veteran help.

 

[HaydizzleToFavors]

I think we all know that KOC can turn us into a perennial playoff team (actually he kind of already has), the real question is whether he can get us some talent that can put us over the top. We have a lot of potential right now, so that's a huge credit to him for gathering it, but an important part of being a GM is not only recognizing whether a player has talent, but also whether the player has the will and work ethic to develop his talent further. Only time will tell.

 

[franklin]

Ok, maybe not complete. Just mostly. If selling tickets is the goal, then this season was a big success. If building a championship team is the goal, then yes, we'd be in a much better position right now if we had accepted this as a rebuilding year, instead of playing for an 8th seed. And yes, I'm aware that maybe things will still turn out ok in a year from now. That doesn't change the position that we are currently in.

Did Big Amish see the RealGM discussion on Favors vs. Monroe vs. Cousins thread? Jazzfanz is banking on 3rd to 2nd team potential leading potentially good role players to a Detroit fairy tale.

By the way, Jazzfanz, Bobcatfanatics wouldn't trade Hayward for Augustine straight across before the season started. See how much fans overrate hometown talent? That Dumpcan stuff and double block by Hayward might be worth the semi-annual "remember when..." reminiscing, but sorry gangsgta, it ain't winning championship. Not S.

 

[freakazoid]

I think you are looking at this heavily weighted by your anger at KOC for not losing on purpose.

LOL. There is no truth to that, but I really don't blame you for continuing to repeat it, as sticking to the truth hasn't exactly worked out too well for you lately.

Yes, Utah would have more value with the 2 picks this year.

That's a bit of an understatement, but I'll let it go for now. No need to dwell on it at the moment, as we'll have plenty of chance to do so.

There is still a huge amount of flexibility here. Utah isn't bogged down by anything worse than Raja. Jefferson, Sap, and Harris all have good value, especially to teams looking to be able to jump on the '13 FA market. Obviously the young guys have great value. If the CBA makes picks worth a lot for Utah who isn't in cap trouble they are worth even more to a team looking to get younger and cheaper.

I've already said that KOC has done a great job overall, and he deserves a ton of credit for where the team is at right now. Just the same, I still think our FO dropped the ball this year by not making a follow-up trade and accepting it as a rebuild, instead of denying it was a rebuild at all. I was also serious when I said I'm not even really sure KOC was to blame for that, or if it had more to do with ownership not wanting to risk a drop in ticket sales.

I doubt our GM would refuse to at least listen to offers for anything not named Favors.

Let's hope they do more than just listen to offers, because if our FO doesn't trade one of our expiring big men, and instead make another run at a 7th or 8th seed with this roster, I think the writing will be on the wall as far as where the priorities are for this francise. If they do make a trade, then I will be first in line to give praise. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. My preference for missing the playoffs had just as much to do with my concern about the FO not wanting to trade starters after having made the playoffs, as it did with losing trade value with our assets. If they do trade one or more of our starters, then it makes this season less of a bad decision.