******* dads.

[Beer]

Hey beer, can you come to the poker game?

First off, when is it again? Second off ... I hate poker. I do not have the attention span and end up going all in over and over until I get the sweet release of losing my money. That being said I'm not opposed to stopping by for a bit.

 

[Gameface]

First off, when is it again? Second off ... I hate poker. I do not have the attention span and end up going all in over and over until I get the sweet release of losing my money. That being said I'm not opposed to stopping by for a bit.

This Saturday. You don't have to play poker. The poker game should be ending about the time the Jazz game starts and we'll all turn our attention to the game.

Free beer...

 

[fishonjazz]

First off, when is it again? Second off ... I hate poker. I do not have the attention span and end up going all in over and over until I get the sweet release of losing my money. That being said I'm not opposed to stopping by for a bit.

This Saturday. You don't have to play poker. The poker game should be ending about the time the Jazz game starts and we'll all turn our attention to the game.

Free beer...

This

 

[Beer]

This

I am very interested, I'm flying out to California for business sometime this weekend but I'm not sure what time. I'll return and report.

 

[olden_undercover]

Your post got me thinking...

What if this kid got caught doing something worse? Let's say he was meeting an underaged girl for a BJ, or selling drugs, or robbing credit unions? What if he was stealing money from the dad and using it to pay a hit man to kill the father?

Those are somewhat extreme, but you get the idea. Where is your breaking point? Rather, at what point would you change your mind and say that the father is justified?


This is a question for all of you, btw.

Another late response... Sorry. Such a good question, though. I've thought about this a lot. I have two daughters, and they are very different from one another. The older one seems pretty likely to end up making decisions that might put her in some bad situations-- for all the nurturing and talks and love I throw at her, there is this angst-y streak in her that seems hell-bent on blazing a path nobody has laid out for her in the slightest way. And... what choice do I have, ultimately, but to let her blaze it? The sentimental parent in me believes with all my very biased heart that she will remain-- in her core-- the sweet little toddler I knew, and will never wander too far into the places we parents hope our children will never go. And then the realist in me reminds me that every human being has potential for good and evil equally, her included.

Those situations you posed may seem extreme, but they've all happened, right? I'm pretty judgmental, not knowing your family's situation, being quick to call this dad in your family an a**hole. So okay-- I'm judgemental. But his entire justification seems to be that he's embarrassed by his son. Is narcissism really a good enough reason to ostracize your own child? I wonder how many people look at Aaron Hernandez's mom and think of her as a bad parent for raising that monster, and then sitting there in that courtroom in support of him. Shouldn't she be at home, hiding from public view, ripping his photographs out of all the family albums? I don't know. Should she?

I can tell you this: The life my daughter creates will be her own. I love her, and will either take pride in or mourn her decisions. Maybe she will become a monster, too, and I will be devastated and wonder what I did to lead her down that path. I am responsible for bringing her into the world, after all. But disown her? Never. I'm not saying I am right-- everyone has different thresholds-- but what does that ever achieve...?

 

[babe]

Babe thought you were LDS.

He expresses his view of the social dynamics of LDS culture, which involves a lot of gossip and keeping up appearances. Says that you can't really understand why the black sheep is the black sheep unless you're tuned into the gossip. Compares mormon culture in this respect to carnivorous feeding and says that piranhas eating chunks of meat might be more "christian" than the LDS gossip that establishes status within that culture.

Trout is a trailblazing renegade, willing to buck the system in pursuit of the truth. A man capable of doing right when right needs doing. Basically equivalent to one of Jesus's apostles. Even though there's an easy way out and acceptance by the unwashed horde...made up of people like you (UGLI) who have given up on living up to the true LDS ideals.

Then he starts in on some nonsense about cows giving birth to twins and how the momma cow smells the second one last and therefore cares for it more. Turns out his wife once had twins and because of smelling the second one last she cared for it and not the first one...but babe was true and pure and cared for both of them.

I don't claim to be LDS, as in card-carrying authority approved LDS. I'm just me.

>>>>>>

That being said, even a real LDS person is allowed to have a sense of humor and launch into a critique of some of the extreme nonsense sometimes seen in LDS culture. Every religion has some "markers" , sometimes called shiboleths as in Old Testament lore, whereby people discern "true believers" from the camp followers in general who are merely socially involved in the identity. In this day and age, there are usually a number of versions of what it takes to be "true" to any religion more or less popularly held by many adherents.

With trouts explanation that the "black sheep" kid's offense was registering as a democrat and maybe talking about issues like LGBT rights and social justice administered by the government as I would suppose that case to be, I proclaim that my "humor" was spot on. While there are wards with prominent democrats active in the social milieu of the ward's everyday doings, there are wards, I think, where being a democrat could be a real stigma. At any rate, there are some Mormons of conservative politics who definitely would have a cow if their kid went democrat. I call that sort of Dad way too concerned about his own reputation, thin-skinned, maybe narcissist, and possibly a sociopath with a relatively mild "index" of sociopathy. Maybe a "control freak" in some street lingo. At any rate, I have heard trout expand upon how his conservative relatives sometimes annoy him several times.

But, lest anyone imagine it's only conservatives who do this sort of trip on their kids, I believe liberals do it more frequently, and generally have lower tolerances for divergent opinions today than conservatives do.

So, Game. . . . I frankly disagree with your take on my comment. And while I understand that a lot of folks would imagine that Jesus today would be pretty cool about better living through chemistry, I'm pretty sure Trout doesn't imagine he's one of Jesus's apostles. Probably wouldn't care to be one, actually. And I've held forth my view several times already that I view the act of turning to chemicals for anything beyond essential nutrition and health maintenance as in say medicines prescribed by competent doctors, if there are any who aren't just on a payola trip from the pharmaceutical industry. . . . . is an act of depending on something inferior in life than the gifts you have naturally, such as skill, intelligence, and common sense.

Joy, or pleasure, might be achieved by chemical means, but why would you prefer that to real joy or pleasures that come from exercising your abilities and accomplishing something worthwhile? Even without any objective deleterious side effects, a chemical high is without merit because it displaces more positive activities from your schedule, and you end up doing less with your life.

 

[Gameface]

I don't claim to be LDS, as in card-carrying authority approved LDS. I'm just me.

>>>>>>

That being said, even a real LDS person is allowed to have a sense of humor and launch into a critique of some of the extreme nonsense sometimes seen in LDS culture. Every religion has some "markers" , sometimes called shiboleths as in Old Testament lore, whereby people discern "true believers" from the camp followers in general who are merely socially involved in the identity. In this day and age, there are usually a number of versions of what it takes to be "true" to any religion more or less popularly held by many adherents.

With trouts explanation that the "black sheep" kid's offense was registering as a democrat and maybe talking about issues like LGBT rights and social justice administered by the government as I would suppose that case to be, I proclaim that my "humor" was spot on. While there are wards with prominent democrats active in the social milieu of the ward's everyday doings, there are wards, I think, where being a democrat could be a real stigma. At any rate, there are some Mormons of conservative politics who definitely would have a cow if their kid went democrat. I call that sort of Dad way too concerned about his own reputation, thin-skinned, maybe narcissist, and possibly a sociopath with a relatively mild "index" of sociopathy. Maybe a "control freak" in some street lingo. At any rate, I have heard trout expand upon how his conservative relatives sometimes annoy him several times.

But, lest anyone imagine it's only conservatives who do this sort of trip on their kids, I believe liberals do it more frequently, and generally have lower tolerances for divergent opinions today than conservatives do.

So, Game. . . . I frankly disagree with your take on my comment. And while I understand that a lot of folks would imagine that Jesus today would be pretty cool about better living through chemistry, I'm pretty sure Trout doesn't imagine he's one of Jesus's apostles. Probably wouldn't care to be one, actually. And I've held forth my view several times already that I view the act of turning to chemicals for anything beyond essential nutrition and health maintenance as in say medicines prescribed by competent doctors, if there are any who aren't just on a payola trip from the pharmaceutical industry. . . . . is an act of depending on something inferior in life than the gifts you have naturally, such as skill, intelligence, and common sense.

Joy, or pleasure, might be achieved by chemical means, but why would you prefer that to real joy or pleasures that come from exercising your abilities and accomplishing something worthwhile? Even without any objective deleterious side effects, a chemical high is without merit because it displaces more positive activities from your schedule, and you end up doing less with your life.

You're talking about drug use now?

 

[Harambe]

You're talking about drug use now?

Some people like to hear themselves talk, others like to read novella long forum posts that they've written.

To each their own.

 

[babe]

Some people like to hear themselves talk, others like to read novella long forum posts that they've written.

To each their own.

This gets rep from me. truth and humor in the same nutshell.

Of course, I like to do both, that's what JF is all about, for me.

Game is about refining the little world of his own social circle to his taste, and about worrying about what other people think. Or don't think, to be precise. He and I will differ on some issues though we both fancy ourselves to be for "liberty".

I didn't go off on the long spiel about drug culture in specific reference to the LDS dad's problem with his liberal kid, but I imagine anyone willing to get the picture might divine a parents concern for a young teen's direction into "liberal" views as posing a risk, a susceptibility, to the life Game had at the same age. Human Liberty be damned if a parent can redirect his teenager away from that life. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the parent who does that.

It really shouldn't take being a chemist to understand the difference between a genuine human life based on good personal decisions, and the degenerate state of chemical dependencies that effectively eviscerate the human capacity for reason.

But of course, however impaired, the human mind always fancies itself to be the paragon of "reason", just as we will likely see some good in whatever life path we've chosen. One thing Game and I agree on, I think, is the benefit of letting kids stay outta our prison system while they grow up, and maybe now would be a good time for me to expound upon how smart a dad could be to exercise some unconditional love while discussing things with his early-teen son who of necessity must test the waters, intellectually speaking. And observe how overt parental force is in such a case generally counter-productive to the goal I approve, of education. Education means bringing out the innate intelligence in a person, not hammering in conformity.

 

[Gameface]

This gets rep from me. truth and humor in the same nutshell.

Of course, I like to do both, that's what JF is all about, for me.

Game is about refining the little world of his own social circle to his taste, and about worrying about what other people think. Or don't think, to be precise. He and I will differ on some issues though we both fancy ourselves to be for "liberty".

I didn't go off on the long spiel about drug culture in specific reference to the LDS dad's problem with his liberal kid, but I imagine anyone willing to get the picture might divine a parents concern for a young teen's direction into "liberal" views as posing a risk, a susceptibility, to the life Game had at the same age. Human Liberty be damned if a parent can redirect his teenager away from that life. I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with the parent who does that.

It really shouldn't take being a chemist to understand the difference between a genuine human life based on good personal decisions, and the degenerate state of chemical dependencies that effectively eviscerate the human capacity for reason.

But of course, however impaired, the human mind always fancies itself to be the paragon of "reason", just as we will likely see some good in whatever life path we've chosen. One thing Game and I agree on, I think, is the benefit of letting kids stay outta our prison system while they grow up, and maybe now would be a good time for me to expound upon how smart a dad could be to exercise some unconditional love while discussing things with his early-teen son who of necessity must test the waters, intellectually speaking. And observe how overt parental force is in such a case generally counter-productive to the goal I approve, of education. Education means bringing out the innate intelligence in a person, not hammering in conformity.

babe, I don't have a social circle

 

[Ron Mexico]

Joy, or pleasure, might be achieved by chemical means, but why would you prefer that to real joy or pleasures that come from exercising your abilities and accomplishing something worthwhile? Even without any objective deleterious side effects, a chemical high is without merit because it displaces more positive activities from your schedule, and you end up doing less with your life.

Real joy and joy are the same thing. There is no such thing as fake joy. That seems to be some weird mormon culture thing.

I dont advocate illegal drug use but for someone who has not been around them or dealt with them in any positive situation to say they are all bad and terrible seems silly to me.

 

[green]

Your post got me thinking...

What if this kid got caught doing something worse? Let's say he was meeting an underaged girl for a BJ, or selling drugs, or robbing credit unions? What if he was stealing money from the dad and using it to pay a hit man to kill the father?

Those are somewhat extreme, but you get the idea. Where is your breaking point? Rather, at what point would you change your mind and say that the father is justified?


This is a question for all of you, btw.

I don't know if my kids could do anything to make me disown them. If they murdered someone, I'd drive them to the police station, but I'd visit them every chance I could. Honestly, if my kid screws up big time and they are still living at home, then I failed.

 

[Beer]

I don't know if my kids could do anything to make me disown them. If they murdered someone, I'd drive them to the police station, but I'd visit them every chance I could. Honestly, if my kid screws up big time and they are still living at home, then I failed.

Yeah, no way I'd ever disown them or stop talking to them. I say never now, but they are still cute little suckers. I guess things could change when they are adults.

 

[babe]

Real joy and joy are the same thing. There is no such thing as fake joy. That seems to be some weird mormon culture thing.

I dont advocate illegal drug use but for someone who has not been around them or dealt with them in any positive situation to say they are all bad and terrible seems silly to me.

"Real" is not an objective adjective when humans process information through a human brain and superimpose their notion of good values on everything. So, we can have our own definitions of "real", if we like. Or, we can understand others for what they mean, if we like.

What I am using as the concept behind my term "real" involves objective outcomes from behavior based on choices, purposes, and changes in the world resulting from our actions. In my view, a "marriage" that produces no children might not be a "real" marriage if the output, or product of the operation, cannot be objectively demonstrated.

I realize that in the world of human imagination, particularly chemical-assisted imagination, the transient feelings might be viewed as the relevant "product" and therefore be considered "real", but since you have no objectively demonstrable outcome to prove things otherwise, I can blithely ignore your claim as merely your own imagination. . . . .

 

[green]

Yeah, no way I'd ever disown them or stop talking to them. I say never now, but they are still cute little suckers. I guess things could change when they are adults.

Yup. I'm trying (probably poorly) to teach them that every choice has a consequence and that they need to own up to the consequences. If they don't like the consequence, then they should re-evaluate their choices.

My kid the other night mouthed off and lost play station. He asked me why I took his play station away. I explained to him that I didn't take away his play station. He had a choice to make and the choice he made led to the play station being shelved. We talked about his choices and what he wanted and what he should do next time to get what he wants.

Hopefully that thought process sinks in someday...

 

[babe]

We have a couple of good dads joining in here, green and beer.

I think it's a good rule to never leave a fallen family member behind. A kid might leave the nest, disown the management, and go to Hell, but a good dad will go to Hell to help him find the way home.

It's the Jesus way.

 

[Ron Mexico]

"Real" is not an objective adjective when humans process information through a human brain and superimpose their notion of good values on everything. So, we can have our own definitions of "real", if we like. Or, we can understand others for what they mean, if we like.

What I am using as the concept behind my term "real" involves objective outcomes from behavior based on choices, purposes, and changes in the world resulting from our actions. In my view, a "marriage" that produces no children might not be a "real" marriage if the output, or product of the operation, cannot be objectively demonstrated.

I realize that in the world of human imagination, particularly chemical-assisted imagination, the transient feelings might be viewed as the relevant "product" and therefore be considered "real", but since you have no objectively demonstrable outcome to prove things otherwise, I can blithely ignore your claim as merely your own imagination. . . . .

Your "real" joy that requires the world to change can still be enhanced by chemicals and give you the ability to change the world, which is the only way those things are done. Chemicals in your head, which differ from chemicals in someone else's head, allow, motivate and give you perception to be able to change the world. Allowing outside chemicals to change those things can give you the ability, which you might not posses, to follow through with behaviors as well as enhance the amount you get out of them. I would give a few examples but seems like a pointless argument since almost every accomplishment can be attributed to chemicals in some way.

I understand that the term "real" is subjective to the individual and you certainly have a different definition of real joy than I do. I also find your definition to be sad, that joy is only objective for you. I find very real joy in everything around me and certainly don't require the world to change (which is also a subjective idea) to find real joy in it. So, yes I understand how you define the difference between real joy and joy but find it a silly distinguish that causes confusion and pain in people.

But I will say that someone who is not around or has not experienced external chemicals simply has no "real" view or important input into an argument about it. I also find it untrue that certain chemicals that are legal are good and helpful and illegal ones don't allow positive changes in ones life.

 

[bigb]

Yup. I'm trying (probably poorly) to teach them that every choice has a consequence and that they need to own up to the consequences. If they don't like the consequence, then they should re-evaluate their choices.

My kid the other night mouthed off and lost play station. He asked me why I took his play station away. I explained to him that I didn't take away his play station. He had a choice to make and the choice he made led to the play station being shelved. We talked about his choices and what he wanted and what he should do next time to get what he wants.

Hopefully that thought process sinks in someday...

I don't know how old your kid is, but I've started to see the progress in my oldest two. My 7 year old son used to slam the door after he'd stomped down the hallway, kicking/hitting whatever was in his path whenever he got sent to his room. I would sit him down and talk to him. He would always say we'd "made him mad". I explained that he alone was responsible for his own actions and reactions, and the way he was reacting to his punishment didn't work and would only lead to more discipline. It's taken a little bit of time and extra discipline, but now he's down to only stomping down the hallway. No slamming of the door or kicking things/people on his way. I can live with a little stomping.

 

[babe]

Real joy and joy are the same thing. There is no such thing as fake joy. That seems to be some weird mormon culture thing.

I dont advocate illegal drug use but for someone who has not been around them or dealt with them in any positive situation to say they are all bad and terrible seems silly to me.

yah, there is "fake" joy. Rumor has it some women fake "joy".

So here is a short story about joy.

Once in my life I couldn't sleep for three days. I had discovered something in my lab work that really got me pumped up high, no not a new chemical, just the success of a project resulting in a new bit of knowledge and technology. I couldn't quit my work for three days to go home and sleep. I did go to the toilet a couple of times. If you ever experience joy like that, I'm sure your sort of "joy" will pale in comparison.

 

[Beer]

yah, there is "fake" joy. Rumor has it some women fake "joy".

So here is a short story about joy.

Once in my life I couldn't sleep for three days. I had discovered something in my lab work that really got me pumped up high, no not a new chemical, just the success of a project resulting in a new bit of knowledge and technology. I couldn't quit my work for three days to go home and sleep. I did go to the toilet a couple of times. If you ever experience joy like that, I'm sure your sort of "joy" will pale in comparison.

Wait are you a farmer or a scientist? For some reason I thought you were some dairy farming redneck from Logan. I legitimately think that and I'm not sure why.