Why the Hell Isn't Rudy in the Starting Lineup?

[8]

Ok. Say we do trade Kanter. Care to make a friendly bet on about what value we get back?

I don't bet.

That sounds impossible to do. Something as subjective as value doesn't really give the type of black and white required to determine a winner and loser of a bet. Also, if the Jazz do trade him, I'll assume they get their desired value in return, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. So if you can setup some sort of bet with those parameters, and I have an epiphany and decide that I should bet on stuff, then yes, I agree to this.

 

[Hotdog]

I don't bet.

That sounds impossible to do. Something as subjective as value doesn't really give the type of black and white required to determine a winner and loser of a bet. Also, if the Jazz do trade him, I'll assume they get their desired value in return, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. So if you can setup some sort of bet with those parameters, and I have an epiphany and decide that I should bet on stuff, then yes, I agree to this.

I know it's a hard bet to make. But you did say something along the lines of he's only worth a 2nd rounder. There is no way in hell he's only worth a Second rounder. He could at least fetch 2 late firsts. Maybe even 1 unprotected. Or he could get a highly coveted young player like Stauskas.

That's what I'm saying.

You are right though. The only deal going down is a good deal for the Jazz. Otherwise you don't make the trade. I wouldn't either.

 

[Hantlers]

Lol.

Nice try.

For one, Robin Lopez is a defensive center. A pretty good one too. Durant is also a good defender

What you just put up there was dumb.

Let me try

My defensive team (all great defenders)

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Lebron James
Karl Malone
Hakeem Olajuwon

Vs

Offensive team

Deron Williams
Kyle Korver
CJ Miles
Carlos Boozer
Memo Okur


See what I did there? Please don't ever try to make that point again. You are better than that Fish


I don't discount offense. I just demand you play defense.

Defense first, offense second. It's not complicated.


BTW, what does that first group all have in common? They were all great two players. Not one way players who eventually fade from memory.

You're being intellectually dishonest. You are clearly talking about players who are good at one facet of the game, ie, offense or defense. Like Tony Allen vs Kevin Martin. Including players like MJ or Bron, who are good at everything, is not a fair, or intellectually honest argument.

 

[fishonjazz]

Exactly.

When you come off the bench, you are more than likely to average less minutes than if you were to start. Also, how the game starts out is big deal. Momentum is huge is the NBA.

Rudy has to be the starter. So the question remains. Is it going to cause problems if Kanter has to come off the bench? Do we want to pay a premium for a bench big?

That's why I think we should be shopping Kanter. I don't hate him. It's just the right move at this juncture. But only if we can get decent value. Which I think we can.

There is reason why we aren't advocating trading Favors. It's because he can play defense too.

Not saying g this towards you nightmare. Just saying it.

I agree with all of this.

 

[fishonjazz]

You're being intellectually dishonest. You are clearly talking about players who are good at one facet of the game, ie, offense or defense. Like Tony Allen vs Kevin Martin. Including players like MJ or Bron, who are good at everything, is not a fair, or intellectually honest argument.

Yep. And I was trying to compare ELITE offense only guys vs ELITE defense only guys, so Martin would not even be included in the conversation


Edit: maybe kevin Martin would qualify. He was a pretty great scorer in his prime

 

[8]

I know it's a hard bet to make. But you did say something along the lines of he's only worth a 2nd rounder. There is no way in hell he's only worth a Second rounder. He could at least fetch 2 late firsts. Maybe even 1 unprotected. Or he could get a highly coveted young player like Stauskas.

That's what I'm saying.

You are right though. The only deal going down is a good deal for the Jazz. Otherwise you don't make the trade. I wouldn't either.

I just don't see him brining in a lottery pick, or a player like Stauskas. This is for half a season of a dude who's going to come off the bench for contenders, and not be able to help in the playoffs. Sure, he's a RFA, but I just don't see a lot of value there. Put yourself in the shoes of another team. Kanter will come to your team and suck at defense for half of a season. He's okay, but there's no guarantee you get him any longer than the rest of the season. I think the best he could do is get an uber late 1st round pick tbh. I just don't think teams are going to give up much for so little in return. The best hope would be that a spot opens up on a contender and they need a quick fix from someone like Kanter. Just like the Cavs realy needed a dude like Mosgov, maybe someone will get injured and a team will go after Kanter. Taht would be ideal.

Again, this is a pointless debate. Neither one of us knows anything. You are trying to persuade me by saying that things are because that's the way it is, and I'm pretty much doing the same thing from the opposite side.

 

[Hotdog]

You're being intellectually dishonest. You are clearly talking about players who are good at one facet of the game, ie, offense or defense. Like Tony Allen vs Kevin Martin. Including players like MJ or Bron, who are good at everything, is not a fair, or intellectually honest argument.

WTf are you talking about?

I'm not the one who started comparing offense only vs defense only. My point has clearly been about needing defense to win championships. No where have I said that a team constituted of defense only players would be a great team. I've said one way offensive players won't get anywhere, and can't be great.


Please show me where I clearly said that a team of defense only would be good.


Thank you for trying. Nice try. Try again.

 

[8]

Damn, a team with MJ, Kobe, Lebron, the Mailman, and Hakeem would be good? Why didn't the Jazz get that one together?

 

[GVC]

You're being intellectually dishonest.

Why even respond? Dude has hijacked what could be a decent discussion, brought exactly zero facts to the table, and chosen to insult anyone who has posted facts or disagreed with him instead of actually engaging in a respectful, intelligent discussion.

He's everything that's wrong with Jazzfanz. Probably best to report all his posts, hope he gets booted from the site, and let the thread die.

 

[Hotdog]

Why even respond? Dude has hijacked what could be a decent discussion, brought exactly zero facts to the table, and chosen to insult anyone who has posted facts or disagreed with him instead of actually engaging in a respectful, intelligent discussion.

He's everything that's wrong with Jazzfanz. Probably best to report all his posts, hope he gets booted from the site, and let the thread die.

Lmao

Are you serious?

I've insulted nobody but you, and it's because that's how you talk to people.

This is hilarious. It sounds like you are describing yourself. What happened to the real GVC? What did you do with him?

Me, Fish, Hants, and LazyD are cool. We are just arguing

You on the other hand I legitimately do not like, and it's for the exact things you accuse me of.

You are such a tool bro.

 

[Siro]

 

[Jamezz]

This is gold, can't wait for the follow up...

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Pull your head put your ***. That team was atrocious at defense.

You apparently do not watch games and just look at stats. It's sad. You have no ability to evaluate a team or a player.

So just to be sure, I want to make sure your argument is essentially what you think you saw over what actually happened, is that correct?

 

[Hotdog]

So just to be sure, I want to make sure your argument is essentially what you think you saw over what actually happened, is that correct?

I'm saying that statistics don't tell the whole story. In fact, they can be misleading. There numerous examples, but I'll just give a couple

If your team makes more shots then fast break opportunities decrease. This can make your defense look better than it is. It's true though, good offense is a good defensive mechanism. But it doesn't define how well you can actually play defense.

Slowing the game down has an effect on defensive statistics.


Then there is the fact that some teams are harder to guard than others. Posting an average doesn't explain how well you do against better teams. Which is what really matters anyways. Also, regular season statistics aren't the same as playoffs.


To answer your question though, yes, my eyes are a better judgment of defensive abilities than some obscure statistic.
I know what I saw. Boozer and Okur couldn't play a lick of defense when it came down to it.


I can't believe there are people who actually believe they played good defense. It was literally one of the worst defenses in the post ever. Neither one put any effort onto it.


How about you two statistic nerds post some defensive stats on how well they did against teams like the Spurs and Lakers?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I'm saying that statistics don't tell the whole story. In fact, they can be misleading. There numerous examples, but I'll just give a couple

If your team makes more shots then fast break opportunities decrease. This can make your defense look better than it is. It's true though, good offense is a good defensive mechanism. But it doesn't define how well you can actually play defense.

That's why there are several different stats to look at. Points per shot, for instance.

Slowing the game down has an effect on defensive statistics.

That's why defensive ratings, like the one GVC mentioned, are based on per possession, not per game.

Then there is the fact that some teams are harder to guard than others. Posting an average doesn't explain how well you do against better teams. Which is what really matters anyways. Also, regular season statistics aren't the same as playoffs.

Not sure what the point is. Houston's offense was much worse against the Jazz in the playoffs than the regular season. LA's was better.

To answer your question though, yes, my eyes are a better judgment of defensive abilities than some obscure statistic.
I know what I saw. Boozer and Okur couldn't play a lick of defense when it came down to it.

So an obscure stat is ACTUAL points scored divided by 100 possessions? This isn't a prediction metric, or an estimate. A FACTUAL stat. You arguing against two plus two equaling four. You can argue HOW that stat came to be, which you allude to earlier. You want to argue against Boozer and Okur? Rather than use "I saw what I saw," use something to actually back it up, like opponents' offensive rating on and off court. Problem with that, though, is that while those two didn't really change in the 08-09 season regular season to playoffs (Okur was injured, anyway). The rest of the team did.

I can't believe there are people who actually believe they played good defense. It was literally one of the worst defenses in the post ever. Neither one put any effort onto it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx4aJH7V9SU

Never.

All you remember is the poor attempts at swiping at the ball stupidity Boozer would often do. What you seem to forget is all the other stuff that goes into defense. During those seasons, Boozer and Okur were certainly adequate to average defenders, not terrible.

How about you two statistic nerd post some defensive stats on how well they did against teams like the Spurs and Lakers?

Their offensive numbers dropped more drastically than the defensive numbers rose. Dropped 5-7 points offensively, while defensive rating rose (negatively, since you want a lower number) 2 to 3 points.

 

[Hotdog]

That's why there are several different stats to look at. Points per shot, for instance.



That's why defensive ratings, like the one GVC mentioned, are based on per possession, not per game.




Not sure what the point is. Houston's offense was much worse against the Jazz in the playoffs than the regular season. LA's was better.




So an obscure stat is ACTUAL points scored divided by 100 possessions? This isn't a prediction metric, or an estimate. A FACTUAL stat. You arguing against two plus two equaling four. You can argue HOW that stat came to be, which you allude to earlier. You want to argue against Boozer and Okur? Rather than use "I saw what I saw," use something to actually back it up, like opponents' offensive rating on and off court. Problem with that, though, is that while those two didn't really change in the 08-09 season regular season to playoffs (Okur was injured, anyway). The rest of the team did.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wx4aJH7V9SU

Never.

All you remember is the poor attempts at swiping at the ball stupidity Boozer would often do. What you seem to forget is all the other stuff that goes into defense. During those seasons, Boozer and Okur were certainly adequate to average defenders, not terrible.



Their offensive numbers dropped more drastically than the defensive numbers rose. Dropped 5-7 points offensively, while defensive rating rose (negatively, since you want a lower number) 2 to 3 points.

You can try to twist and bend the truth all you want.

I just got one question for you though....

Did we win?


Did...........we...........win.....?


Oh........, you see, that's the most important statistic that matters. Isn't it?

We didn't even come close did we? The Western Conference Finals was a fluke appearance. Everyone knows that. Had the Maverik not got upset by the Warriors we never even would have made the final four. Dallas would have crushed us. They were really good that year.


Everyone knows our offense was food on that team. So why didn't we win with such a great offense? I think if you pull your head out your *** then you will find the answer.



And posting one block by Okur is hilarious.... good job.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Rudy is starting. Favors is out for personal reasons. Kinda hoping being paired with Gobert in the starting lineup allows Kanter to go off for 35 points and 10+ rebounds in this game. That way tomorrow, Quin Snyder can announce that Favors personal reasons are expected to keep him out until after the trade deadline.

 

[freakazoid]

Damn, a team with MJ, Kobe, Lebron, the Mailman, and Hakeem would be good? Why didn't the Jazz get that one together?

None of those guys were perfect though. It's about time we as fans let the FO know that we will no longer accept anything less than perfection. Personally, I'm gonna continue to bitch about anything and everything until we have Jesus Christ at all 5 positions.

 

[Hekate]

None of those guys were perfect though. It's about time we as fans let the FO know that we will no longer accept anything less than perfection. Personally, I'm gonna continue to bitch about anything and everything until we have Jesus Christ at all 5 positions.

Meh.

 

[freakazoid]

Meh.

Allah?