Can we just release Burke and Hayward?

[CitizenofCapua]

If Hayward can do other things exceptionally well like assisting, rebounding, defending, attacking etc. i dont mind his poor shooting at all but he should accept this role and stop chucking the ball like he is freaking Hornacek.

 

[billyshelby]

If Hayward can do other things exceptionally well like assisting, rebounding, defending, attacking etc. i dont mind his poor shooting at all but he should accept this role and stop chucking the ball like he is freaking Hornacek.

But Hayward doesn't do any of those things exceptionally well. He definitely can't "attack,", he's an average defender, and his rebounding only looks nice because he gets 36 minutes. In fact, all his stats are horribly inflated by minutes alone.

I find his passing interesting. He can definitely pass. But there are two problems with his passing ability. One, nearly all his assists are to outside shooters, not at the basket. Two, on a team with quality players, he would handle the ball much less, and his assist numbers would come down dramatically even with the minutes.

 

[CitizenofCapua]

But Hayward doesn't do any of those things exceptionally well. He definitely can't "attack,", he's an average defender, and his rebounding only looks nice because he gets 36 minutes. In fact, all his stats are horribly inflated by minutes alone.

I find his passing interesting. He can definitely pass. But there are two problems with his passing ability. One, nearly all his assists are to outside shooters, not at the basket. Two, on a team with quality players, he would handle the ball much less, and his assist numbers would come down dramatically even with the minutes.

Most of his assists are not hockey assists. He is dribbling the ball and when he draw the defense on him he is kicking the ball out so he should get credit for it and he is good at two man games with kanter, favors so he is also getting some numbers from there.

Also i think he is a good defender he really pissed of Wade against Miami he got lenght, long arms and he is athletic so i think he would always be above average with his defense.

And if he attacks the rim more often it would be better for him. He can really play over the rim and draw fouls with his vertical, athleticism like Burks doing really good lately and he also did it at last game. And he is shooting good at the line so he can attack and easily can get some of his points from charity stripe.

 

[VINYLONE]

I'm less hopeful by the day, but still hopeful.

This is kind of perplexing to me. I mean, we're 4 months into his career and you're essentially writing him off. Think about that...4 months.

 

[Primetime]

But Hayward doesn't do any of those things exceptionally well. He definitely can't "attack,", he's an average defender, and his rebounding only looks nice because he gets 36 minutes. In fact, all his stats are horribly inflated by minutes alone.

If you think his numbers are "inflated" because of his minutes than look at his advanced stats and it will give you a better idea of how he is doing! I made a list of wing players who got more than 1000 minutes this season and ranked them based on AST%, REB% and FTr(Alec is also on that list!).

Spoiler

I don't know how you define "exceptionally well" but his passing and playmaking is elite in my book(compared to wings!). His rebounding ain't elite but he is above average and it has nothing to do with the minutes he gets. I agree with the defensiv part but really who is an above average defender on this team? We just have Derrick who is above average and that's it. And more than individual defensive guys this team needs a coach who can implant TEAM DEFENSE. Like coach Clifford did in Charlotte. And he ain't getting to the line like an elite wing but again he is above average in that depature as well.

I find his passing interesting. He can definitely pass. But there are two problems with his passing ability. One, nearly all his assists are to outside shooters, not at the basket. Two, on a team with quality players, he would handle the ball much less, and his assist numbers would come down dramatically even with the minutes.

Why is him passing to outside shooters a problem? It's not like he is standing on the perimeter and passing to his left or his right and says "shoot it". There are really two possibilitys. He can drive to the basket or he can play a PnR with one of our bigs.
When he drives to the basket he can either dish or kick it to the outside. And defenses don't allow a drive and dish so much in the NBA. So it is up to the ball handler to make the right read. If the dish is not there than he have to find the open man at the perimeter and that's not a bad thing at all because it's a wide open shot most of the times.
When he runs a PnR with either Enes or Derrick there are the similar options. You find the roll(Derrick), the pop(Enes) or the outside shot. If the defense does not allow you the roll/pop than you gotta kick it out. And that wouldn't be a bad thing either.
He is doing a good job when he drives to the basket. I really don't remember situations where he didn't dish the ball in favor of an outside shot but he could do a better job in PnR situatins with Derrick but that really isn't just Gordon's problem.

And I totally disagree with your second part I don't see him as a top 2 scoring option on a team with quality players(he would be the 3rd or 4th opion) but I would still let him handle the ball and create for others even with quality players!

 

[franklin]

That's what I've been trying to say all along. I think CP3 and Deron shot around 42% their rookie years. I'm not afraid of the shooting, it's lack of getting inside the paint and to the foul line that makes me question how good he will be. Hopefully he'll find his niche and be able to be a solid player.

Why compare him to the game's best atm? Trey's not likely to become CP3 and that's not what we're expecting of him. The pg spot is in a loaded era and I'd like Trey to fall in somewhere in the top 15, with Conleyesque upside. That's a nice player worth keeping (and not bitching about at the all star break of his rookie season).

 

[JoelHodgeJr]

I'm also annoyed with all hate directed forwards Gordon. Hating on Burke is equally stupid.

Being a number one option is not always equivalent too being the best on the team. Look at Grant Hills career. A point forward who scored mainly off of post up and cutting. Not a great shot creator for himself but regarded as one of the best in the league.

Gordon value is also underrated because he's a point forward with no options to pass too. Its truly impressive that's he's averaging nearly 6asts a game with no out side shooters (Marv excluded) and very limited inside options.

He's struggling with scoring because the opposing defenses are focusing their game plan entirely on him. Its not like they are worried about any of the other starters going off for 40 points.

Burke is playing great. He's really playing at Deron Williams level when he was a rookie but has fewer options to pass too.
Too trade him away now would be a stupendously stupid mistake. Shooting is pretty much the only thing that all NBA players improve on as they age. Trey is not ellite but he wants to be. That drive is more important than anything else. You know he's going to hit the gym and improve.

This year is about rebuilding. It does not happen over night but yet many of you are panicked at the midpoint in the season. You forget to realize we have already met our expected win total for the season half way through. We are much better than anyone thought we would be. (That's a good thing!)

Patience is a virtue. Impatience is ignorance.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[Stifle Tower]

Gordon is a point forward? I thought he was our starting SG.

 

[Doublea]

Why compare him to the game's best atm? Trey's not likely to become CP3 and that's not what we're expecting of him. The pg spot is in a loaded era and I'd like Trey to fall in somewhere in the top 15, with Conleyesque upside. That's a nice player worth keeping (and not bitching about at the all star break of his rookie season).

I'm not really comparing him to them, I'm comparing their fg%'s. Even the best struggled their rookie years.

 

[JoelHodgeJr]

SG is more about placement then playing style.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[Doublea]

Gordon is a point forward? I thought he was our starting SG.

He's used as a point forward a lot of the time, that's why you see the ball in his hands.

 

[franklin]

I'm not really comparing him to them, I'm comparing their fg%'s. Even the best struggled their rookie years.

I wasn't meaning you. It was directed more toward all the OMGZ! Burke isn't gunna be CP3 let's trad him 4 darft picks stuff that's flooded the site since hitting his 5 game rookie wall.

The kid obviously has game. People need to calm down and let him grow.

 

[DForceAUS]

Agree. And that's one reason KOC and Lindsey have been so determined to completely clear the books of long-term contracts. Not having long-term contracts meant DL could go the direction he did this summer when asset accumulation was more important than overspending for the players who were FA's.

Stars are always going to get paid. But the new CBA is going to squeeze the next tier of players (good example is Paul Millsap). Fewer teams are going to be willing to exceed the tax limit, especially if it puts them in the classification of "repeat offender." There should be some pretty good players available every year. If a team like Utah has cap space, they can step in and outbid most others and still not "overpay" for that player. We did all right the last time Utah had a ton of cap space and brought in Boozer and Okur as FA's.

That's why I believe Lindsey shoud turn over every rock and consider letting Hayward walk...IF there is a better FA out there and IF a team steps up and offers a ton of money for Gordon. SF is the EASIEST position to replace in the NBA. And at SG, there is a star sitting on the bench who can move into the lineup.

Ran out of Rep but +1

 

[DForceAUS]

Trey is in his first year, at some point he was going to hit the wall. I hope over time he improves- I'm sure he will. A new coach next year should help.

 

[Jazz4ever]

But Hayward doesn't do any of those things exceptionally well. He definitely can't "attack,", he's an average defender, and his rebounding only looks nice because he gets 36 minutes. In fact, all his stats are horribly inflated by minutes alone.

I find his passing interesting. He can definitely pass. But there are two problems with his passing ability. One, nearly all his assists are to outside shooters, not at the basket. Two, on a team with quality players, he would handle the ball much less, and his assist numbers would come down dramatically even with the minutes.

Yes but if we were to acquire a "quality" player, it would also mean Gordon would get to shoot set shots instead of everything off the dribble. His assist rate would fall, but his TS% would jump. It's a pretty good trade off. Also don't dismiss his improved rebounding and steal rate, even adjusted per minute, its well above average for SFs in this league.

 

[Stifle Tower]

He's used as a point forward a lot of the time, that's why you see the ball in his hands.

Yes, I know. But technically he starts at SG position. So if you start Alec, Gordon has to slide to SF. And he's not very good at defending most SF's around the league. It's a liabilty that has to be considered along with his strengths? of being a "point forward" on offense.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Yes but if we were to acquire a "quality" player, it would also mean Gordon would get to shoot set shots instead of everything off the dribble. His assist rate would fall, but his TS% would jump. It's a pretty good trade off. Also don't dismiss his improved rebounding and steal rate, even adjusted per minute, its well above average for SFs in this league.

Well, his percentage can't drop much lower. I'll give you that!

But we're mixing things up here. Are we saying he's a SF and Jefferson is our SG?

 

[Doublea]

Yes, I know. But technically he starts at SG position. So if you start Alec, Gordon has to slide to SF. And he's not very good at defending most SF's around the league. It's a liabilty that has to be considered along with his strengths? of being a "point forward" on offense.

SF has always been his main position though.

 

[Stifle Tower]

SF has always been his main position though.

So he starts at SF and Jefferson is the SG? I'm confused.
I realize the two are interchangeable in the Jazz offense. But not defensively.
I guess this is kind of like the Tim Duncan debate: is he a center or is he a PF? In Hayward's case, some sites list him as a guard, some as a forward. Official Jazz site has him listed as that ambiguous "G-F" which means he swings both ways (not that there's anything wrong with that).

 

[Stifle Tower]

I think that's part of the Jazz' problem. Team needs to decide what Hayward is going to be if/when he re-signs. I'd argue that he can't handle the role they have him in right now. Jazz can decide to have Burks continue to come off the bench, in which case Lindsey needs to draft or find a SF. Or Burks can start, Hayward slides to SF on both sides of the ball and Lindsey needs another guard to come off the bench.

And IF Hayward continues to be the playmaker, replace Trey with a PG who can shoot. Why have a "pass-first" PG if that role is in the hands of a "point forward." In that case, Jazz are better off with a gunner at the PG position since Hayward is the drive and dish guy. The team concept is flawed right now and it's not benefitting Hayward, Burke or Burks.