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John Collins = Marvin Williams

Something definitely went down in the locker room. Not buying this “slow to pick up the system” leak but maybe @andylarsen can clarify.
 
Flc said:
Something definitely went down in the locker room. Not buying this “slow to pick up the system” leak but maybe @andylarsen can clarify.
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It actually makes sense. His BPM is not in line with his stats, but if he causes breakdowns on both ends by not being where he is supposed to be that explains the BPM and why it has been hard to catch in eyeball test.

They said they are happy with his scoring and rebounding, but apparently he isnt where he is supposed to be on the court most of the time. That kills a team that doesnt have a clear advantage in skilled individuals or if you look at the Clippers you could say that no amount of individual talent can overcome poor team play.
 
Why would they say that about a guy if they wanted to trade him? Doesn't that hurt his trade value that's been a little recovered now that his finger and shooting issues seem resolved?
 
Ron Mexico said:
Why would they say that about a guy if they wanted to trade him? Doesn't that hurt his trade value that's been a little recovered now that his finger and shooting issues seem resolved?
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That is weird, but it is generally known that Hardy has a difficult system. If adopting to a difficult system is the only problem you have with the guy, then there are teams with easier systems or systems where he is more of a natural fit.

I mean you have to give some excuse as to why you put the guy on the block so soon. Otherwise potential buyers are just speculating and might be more concerned about it.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Why would they say that about a guy if they wanted to trade him? Doesn't that hurt his trade value that's been a little recovered now that his finger and shooting issues seem resolved?
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They didnt come out and say it. It was a leak


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Ron Mexico said:
Why would they say that about a guy if they wanted to trade him? Doesn't that hurt his trade value that's been a little recovered now that his finger and shooting issues seem resolved?
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If he sucks because he sucks that hurts more than he sucks just because he doesn't fit a specific system
 
Agent#00 said:

View: https://x.com/Ben_Dowsett/status/1744596802610122984?s=20
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I think that proves how much of our success comes from playing as a unit.

Collins individual play is not that level bad, and yet he is a net negative well beyond his counting stats in every single 2-5 man lineup.... so its not really a fit thing either (unless you want to say that he is a bad fit with EVERYONE). He just doesnt have a grasp on what Hardy wants him to do in different situations, and causes system malfunctions regardless of who he plays with.

I think Atlanta may have broken him and seeing how the Hawks struggle to adapt to Quin's systems I'm thinking there might be others who are broken as well. Nate McMillan ran such elemantary offenses and defenses that when you all of a sudden have to master something more complex you have years of playing only with your instincts and habits that you first need to overcome.
 
HermanG said:
I think that proves how much of our success comes from playing as a unit.

Collins individual play is not that level bad, and yet he is a net negative well beyond his counting stats in every single 2-5 man lineup.... so its not really a fit thing either (unless you want to say that he is a bad fit with EVERYONE). He just doesnt have a grasp on what Hardy wants him to do in different situations, and causes system malfunctions regardless of who he plays with.

I think Atlanta may have broken him and seeing how the Hawks struggle to adapt to Quin's systems I'm thinking there might be others who are broken as well. Nate McMillan ran such elemantary offenses and defenses that when you all of a sudden have to master something more complex you have years of playing only with your instincts and habits that you first need to overcome.
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The Hawks are 6th in offense..

They have mediocre wings and a center who has fallen off defensively, but still looks good stats wise because he plays with a great playmaker
 
HermanG said:
I think that proves how much of our success comes from playing as a unit.

Collins individual play is not that level bad, and yet he is a net negative well beyond his counting stats in every single 2-5 man lineup.... so its not really a fit thing either (unless you want to say that he is a bad fit with EVERYONE). He just doesnt have a grasp on what Hardy wants him to do in different situations, and causes system malfunctions regardless of who he plays with.

I think Atlanta may have broken him and seeing how the Hawks struggle to adapt to Quin's systems I'm thinking there might be others who are broken as well. Nate McMillan ran such elemantary offenses and defenses that when you all of a sudden have to master something more complex you have years of playing only with your instincts and habits that you first need to overcome.
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As the kids would say “it ain’t that deep”. It isn’t that he’s performed horribly… it isn’t that he’s broken… it’s simply he’s just not that good. He’s fine but he’s got his limitations. They were there in Atlanta in multiple roles and iterations. The players you need to fit around John to maximize what he does are rare. He’s a third big who’s paid like a surefire everyday starter.

The plus minus stuff is exaggerated for sure. I swear people forgot about the extreme difference an elite rim protector makes in things like plus minus. Based on plus minus Rudy would look like the mvp in advanced stats. Collins is a horrible rim protector as a center. Lauri really isn’t a rim protecting center… going from shutting off the paint to a full green light makes a huge difference in defense. That is why it will always look bad. If you had a floor spacing rim protector then Collins could play starter minutes and put up his near 20/10 as a roller and spot up shooter. Otherwise he’s just a third big that makes twice as much as he should.
 
I'm pretty happy with what I am seeing from Collins right now. He is finding his role with this team and is showing consistency.
 
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