Kris Dunn

[KqWIN]

I think Batum had a clear cut role for them that expanded as the season went on and injuries dictated. Jackson is very similar to Dunn imo... they had just brought on Kennard... still had Lou Will and Pat Bev. His minutes yo-yo'd at the beginning of the season as they were figuring out what worked. They thought they needed a floor general and even went out and added Rondo at the trade deadline... so RJ's role was not clear cut at all. They thought he might be useful, but it would have been reasonable to guess that he'd be out of the rotation at some point during the season if they were healthy. Very much like Dunn would be here.

Mann was a development surprise... but I use these guys as fringe roster additions that can change things for you. One of those types of moves isn't enough on its own... but as a whole they have a material effect on the season for sure. So when folks say "who cares player X is your 8th/9th man" it doesn't really work for me. Dunn might get mothballed like Rondo did... but he also might really help.

I agree with the overall assessment on Smart being better... definitely the preferred route from my perspective. I think Dunn could be a useful specialist because he is incredibly good at the thing he does well. If Butler isn't ready he'd be useful in managing the season and keeping DM, Mike, and Joe healthy through load management. If Quin doesn't have good options I don't see us willingly going into load management mode until it becomes injury management.

My line of thinking on Dunn is - If we are in the Clippers series and everything is going the way it was and the only thing that changed is we had a healthy Kris Dunn do I think Quin would use him? I do... Do I think it would matter? Yes I think it would. RJ was killing us... Dunn can help stem that tide. He might also be able to sneak in and disrupt some drives. He might have hurt us offensively but I might prefer him to Royce at times.

We've solved the frontcourt depth problems imo... the perimeter/guard depth issues are hopefully solved by Butler, Forrest, and decent health. Kind of a grab bag there. I agree Smart would be like a perfect solution theoretically. But I think Dunn is a really useful second option and if it only costs $7M extra I'd do it in a heart beat. Might be able to get a second rounder for your trouble. Boston may not make Smart available at all and if they did they might do better than JC.

If the Dunn acquisition had no impact it is either because he was hurt (that sucks) or because the team was healthy and/or Butler looks good... I think you'd be in a pretty good place if the latter is true. We need to make as many good bets as we can imo.

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

 

[infection]

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

I see what you’re saying, I just don’t think we’ll be making those changes, so I see this as an alternative that may have a bit more benefit than you’d expect. I see it as a win-win where we’re either healthy and have a better chance of weathering those storms, or we have health/foul issues and have some different looks available.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

RJ was playing 20 MPG the instant he got to LAC. They had a role for him right away. They brought Kennard in the next summer, but IMO that's not the same as Dunn because they brought in someone different at the same/higher level. That's where the biggest difference lies for me. Dunn is on the fringes whereas Reggie Jackson was a well established starting PG (with a big contract to back it up). The Clippers were stacking their roster with proven rotation/starter caliber guys. Adding Dunn would be adding a player that's clearly below the players that are currently in the rotation. I don't believe he's close to Clarkson/Ingles, which is who he would have to take minutes from.

And again, I'm not saying players 10-15 don't matter or that it's not important. I just think it's significantly less important than the guys who play 30+ minutes and can potentially close games for you. The Jazz have a massive problem at that level. The problem/solution is our key players. For example, I don't think Gay replacing Niang is going to change much even though he is better defensively. But I do think Gay overtaking Bogey could change things. I think Gay could potentially be an alternative to Bogey, but I don't think Dunn is a true alternative to Clarkson. I doubt Quin would ever sit a healthy JC for a healthy Dunn. If we theoretically brought in someone like Justin Holiday....that level of player is someone who I think could be a real alternative to JC but for me Dunn is below that.

If Ryan want's to spend a boatload of money to have Dunn instead of the grab bag of young players (Oni, Brantley ect) that's his choice and it's not my money. But I'm not sure that's the better option. If the Clippers had dumped Mann for a vet that would have obviously been a big mistake. Mann doesn't happen if he doesn't have a roster spot. Personally, I'd prefer to have Oni/Brantley on the roster because of that potential. I think it's a better value add than whatever Dunn (or any other fringe vet) might provide for us.

When RJ came back this year his role was very much in flux. More established than Dunn but Dunn is a good established player when healthy. If healthy he is not a fringe guy at all. RJ was closer to the fringes in fact... he signed a minimum deal with the clips to start the season and considered just hanging it up as basketball wasn't fun anymore... Dunn got a 2 year 10M deal last year but never got healthy. I'd say they are in similar tiers though they have opposite skills and offense is more important than defense with guards imo. I don't see it as much different.

Mann was a better prospect than Oni and had shown more as a rookie imo. Showed little to no improvement this year as Mann broke out. I think the chance that Oni or Brantley become anything resembling Mann are slim to none. IF we churned those spots and found some young guy with potential that is another story.

Dunn is a flier, but the thing he is elite at is our biggest need. If he's healthy and sneaks into the lineup for 5-6 games because of injury he may show it could work well here and we could then move JC or maybe the injury issue subsides and Dunn's trade value increases and you could flip him elsewhere. Or he spends a year in the program... plays a bit and proves to be a solid backup and we use his bird rights to keep him when Ingles rides into the sunset.

It comes down to money... but Dunn is about as good of a bet as you could make imo. I prefer a straight swap of JC for Smart... outside of that I am not sure there is a reasonable deal that balances the roster without a big risk of hurting the offense. That market is super duper limited.

If Dunn is healthy I prefer him to Holiday but they are very different players.

Mixing in Gay/Dunn/Whiteside may help improve the defense enough to get us where we need to go. The margins are pretty thin. I think last year wasn't a full fledged fluke but it was definitely exaggerated by the fact that Donovan and Mike were both on one leg or out. So healthy Donovan/Mike, fresher Joe (because we manage him for once), plus the other small rotation adjustments should be enough imo. If Mike and Donovan are healthy we likely win the clips series. If we also had Gay in Niang's minutes I like our chances a lot more. If the current group met the current clips sans Kawhi I think we win.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Its also a deal you would need to do now... if Dunn ends up playing 20 minutes a night and looks healthy then he likely plays himself into a spot where he's an asset. It is a buy low situation as @infection mentioned. If someone gets hurt and we now need to do a deal then the cost goes up to where it may not get done. I love Butler and am comfortable relying on him as an option for the load management nights... but even I can recognize an established vet who is elite at the thing we sorely lack is almost surely going to be a better option.

 

[Ineptimusprime]

Is there an inclination the Jazz want this dude?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is there an inclination the Jazz want this dude?

No... but that is why we exist... to make this happen or hand wring when it doesn't.

 

[KqWIN]

When RJ came back this year his role was very much in flux. More established than Dunn but Dunn is a good established player when healthy. If healthy he is not a fringe guy at all. RJ was closer to the fringes in fact... he signed a minimum deal with the clips to start the season and considered just hanging it up as basketball wasn't fun anymore... Dunn got a 2 year 10M deal last year but never got healthy. I'd say they are in similar tiers though they have opposite skills and offense is more important than defense with guards imo. I don't see it as much different.

Mann was a better prospect than Oni and had shown more as a rookie imo. Showed little to no improvement this year as Mann broke out. I think the chance that Oni or Brantley become anything resembling Mann are slim to none. IF we churned those spots and found some young guy with potential that is another story.

Dunn is a flier, but the thing he is elite at is our biggest need. If he's healthy and sneaks into the lineup for 5-6 games because of injury he may show it could work well here and we could then move JC or maybe the injury issue subsides and Dunn's trade value increases and you could flip him elsewhere. Or he spends a year in the program... plays a bit and proves to be a solid backup and we use his bird rights to keep him when Ingles rides into the sunset.

It comes down to money... but Dunn is about as good of a bet as you could make imo. I prefer a straight swap of JC for Smart... outside of that I am not sure there is a reasonable deal that balances the roster without a big risk of hurting the offense. That market is super duper limited.

If Dunn is healthy I prefer him to Holiday but they are very different players.

Mixing in Gay/Dunn/Whiteside may help improve the defense enough to get us where we need to go. The margins are pretty thin. I think last year wasn't a full fledged fluke but it was definitely exaggerated by the fact that Donovan and Mike were both on one leg or out. So healthy Donovan/Mike, fresher Joe (because we manage him for once), plus the other small rotation adjustments should be enough imo. If Mike and Donovan are healthy we likely win the clips series. If we also had Gay in Niang's minutes I like our chances a lot more. If the current group met the current clips sans Kawhi I think we win.

RJ's role may have been in flux, but that's because they brought in Kennard who was seen by everyone as a rotation player. If he was ever on the fringes (he wasn't) it was because there was a surplus of rotation level players. To me, Dunn isn't the same caliber of player. If Rubio were to get bought and we sign him (not totally unrealistic btw), that would be a RJ type signing. I could reasonably see Rubio playing instead of a healthy JC....I can't see that that with Dunn. Maybe I'm just low on him.

The chance that Terance Mann turned into Terance Mann was slim. I'm not saying Oni or Brantley are going to make it, but I'd rather take a chance on someone (anyone) with the last roster spots than vets. As a flier...I don't really care. It's fine to take the bet on Dunn if Ryan wants to pay. I think it's also fine to take a chance on a young player.

I see how Dunn is a cheaper alternative to Smart as a similar type of player, but I don't see him as an alternative in the sense that he can make a major impact on this team. If the price is just a ton of money from a billionaire's pocket, I don't care. I think it would fall in line with my thoughts on all the moves this summer. I like everyone at the value we got them at, but did we really address our problems? Not really....

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

RJ's role may have been in flux, but that's because they brought in Kennard who was seen by everyone as a rotation player. If he was ever on the fringes (he wasn't) it was because there was a surplus of rotation level players. To me, Dunn isn't the same caliber of player. If Rubio were to get bought and we sign him (not totally unrealistic btw), that would be a RJ type signing. I could reasonably see Rubio playing instead of a healthy JC....I can't see that that with Dunn. Maybe I'm just low on him.

The chance that Terance Mann turned into Terance Mann was slim. I'm not saying Oni or Brantley are going to make it, but I'd rather take a chance on someone (anyone) with the last roster spots than vets. As a flier...I don't really care. It's fine to take the bet on Dunn if Ryan wants to pay. I think it's also fine to take a chance on a young player.

I see how Dunn is a cheaper alternative to Smart as a similar type of player, but I don't see him as an alternative in the sense that he can make a major impact on this team. If the price is just a ton of money from a billionaire's pocket, I don't care. I think it would fall in line with my thoughts on all the moves this summer. I like everyone at the value we got them at, but did we really address our problems? Not really....

I don't see them as that much different. Ricky is in a higher tier than both guys imo. I mean both guys were free agents last year and Dunn got 10x as much as RJ got... and RJ was healthy while Dunn was coming off a knee injury. I think right now RJ's stock is really high and Dunn's cratered because he's been out all year. Dunn is less established but he is still established. Maybe RJ is a tier higher... but last year the market said otherwise and clips brought him back because he was a minimum... he wasn't a priority at all... there was not a clear and obvious role given the personnel they had added. Its not completely similar but there are some commonalities.

I've seen enough of Oni and Brantley at this point... if they churn those spots looking for diamonds then fine. Mann had a 25 pt damn near triple double as a rookie... it was in the bubble and in a meaningless game... but I think he'd shown a ton more potential. Brantley just took the qualifying offer so he likely canvased the league for a guaranteed minimum deal before doing so... I'm fine taking a chance on a young guy but would rather get Dunn... I'd also find different young guys.

Not getting Dunn or an established player because they likely won't make a big impact fits in the same category as when we didn't want to add someone because we had Niang last year. We are now much deeper imo and go 10 deep with actual nba players... Butler and Udoka are also better prospects than some of the guys we gave roster spots to last year. I just think we are one injury away from a guy like this being a 15-20 minute a night guy and that is meaningful.... now and in the post season.

Did we address our problems? Yeah we addressed a bunch of them... did we address all of them... nah. I don't think most teams do though. Its hard.

 

[KqWIN]

I don't see them as that much different. Ricky is in a higher tier than both guys imo. I mean both guys were free agents last year and Dunn got 10x as much as RJ got... and RJ was healthy while Dunn was coming off a knee injury. I think right now RJ's stock is really high and Dunn's cratered because he's been out all year. Dunn is less established but he is still established. Maybe RJ is a tier higher... but last year the market said otherwise and clips brought him back because he was a minimum... he wasn't a priority at all... there was not a clear and obvious role given the personnel they had added. Its not completely similar but there are some commonalities.

I've seen enough of Oni and Brantley at this point... if they churn those spots looking for diamonds then fine. Mann had a 25 pt damn near triple double as a rookie... it was in the bubble and in a meaningless game... but I think he'd shown a ton more potential. Brantley just took the qualifying offer so he likely canvased the league for a guaranteed minimum deal before doing so... I'm fine taking a chance on a young guy but would rather get Dunn... I'd also find different young guys.

Not getting Dunn or an established player because they likely won't make a big impact fits in the same category as when we didn't want to add someone because we had Niang last year. We are now much deeper imo and go 10 deep with actual nba players... Butler and Udoka are also better prospects than some of the guys we gave roster spots to last year. I just think we are one injury away from a guy like this being a 15-20 minute a night guy and that is meaningful.... now and in the post season.

Did we address our problems? Yeah we addressed a bunch of them... did we address all of them... nah. I don't think most teams do though. Its hard.

Reggie signed the minimum because he desperately wanted to play for the Clippers. Even if you were down on RJ, all he had to do was get back to the player he was which was way above Dunn has ever been. I don't really buy Dunn as sure fire, well established player. I don't consider starting on a teams trying to lose as really establishing yourself. That's probably our biggest difference in opinion. If Clarkson was hurt, I don't think Dunn is a surefire bet to play those minutes or play those minutes well.

You can pick whoever as far as young players, but fact is, if you want to have a young player blossom...you have to have the young player in the first place. If you don't have that roster spot for a young guy the chances go from slim to zero. Since I don't see Dunn as a sure fire NBA player, I'd rather take a bet on a prospect. If Ryan wants to spend, I don't really care if we take a chance on Dunn. End of roster and main rotation are two entirely different discussions and I'm less invested in the end of roster moves.

I don't really see how we addressed our problems personally, especially the big one. Can our best lineup defend? To me that is an obvious no because it hasn't changed. The only change is that instead of Ingles, you have a worse defender (Conley or Bogey) playing instead if we are healthy.

Gay is a better defender than Niang (who was actually good last year btw), and the combination of he and Whiteside is probably better than Favors...but unless he's playing major minutes and supplanting someone like Bogey, it's not going to make major difference. The key issue is that our key players can't defend. If the key guys are they same key guys, I don't have an expectation that things will change.

 

[infection]

I don't see them as that much different. Ricky is in a higher tier than both guys imo. I mean both guys were free agents last year and Dunn got 10x as much as RJ got... and RJ was healthy while Dunn was coming off a knee injury. I think right now RJ's stock is really high and Dunn's cratered because he's been out all year. Dunn is less established but he is still established. Maybe RJ is a tier higher... but last year the market said otherwise and clips brought him back because he was a minimum... he wasn't a priority at all... there was not a clear and obvious role given the personnel they had added. Its not completely similar but there are some commonalities.

I've seen enough of Oni and Brantley at this point... if they churn those spots looking for diamonds then fine. Mann had a 25 pt damn near triple double as a rookie... it was in the bubble and in a meaningless game... but I think he'd shown a ton more potential. Brantley just took the qualifying offer so he likely canvased the league for a guaranteed minimum deal before doing so... I'm fine taking a chance on a young guy but would rather get Dunn... I'd also find different young guys.

Not getting Dunn or an established player because they likely won't make a big impact fits in the same category as when we didn't want to add someone because we had Niang last year. We are now much deeper imo and go 10 deep with actual nba players... Butler and Udoka are also better prospects than some of the guys we gave roster spots to last year. I just think we are one injury away from a guy like this being a 15-20 minute a night guy and that is meaningful.... now and in the post season.

Did we address our problems? Yeah we addressed a bunch of them... did we address all of them... nah. I don't think most teams do though. Its hard.

You don’t need that 100k life insurance policy at work because if you die it won’t support your family, and the $1 premium can get you a small snack off the value menu every month.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Reggie signed the minimum because he desperately wanted to play for the Clippers. Even if you were down on RJ, all he had to do was get back to the player he was which was way above Dunn has ever been. I don't really buy Dunn as sure fire, well established player. I don't consider starting on a teams trying to lose as really establishing yourself. That's probably our biggest difference in opinion. If Clarkson was hurt, I don't think Dunn is a surefire bet to play those minutes or play those minutes well.

You can pick whoever as far as young players, but fact is, if you want to have a young player blossom...you have to have the young player in the first place. If you don't have that roster spot for a young guy the chances go from slim to zero. Since I don't see Dunn as a sure fire NBA player, I'd rather take a bet on a prospect. If Ryan wants to spend, I don't really care if we take a chance on Dunn. End of roster and main rotation are two entirely different discussions and I'm less invested in the end of roster moves.

I don't really see how we addressed our problems personally, especially the big one. Can our best lineup defend? To me that is an obvious no because it hasn't changed. The only change is that instead of Ingles, you have a worse defender (Conley or Bogey) playing instead if we are healthy.

Gay is a better defender than Niang (who was actually good last year btw), and the combination of he and Whiteside is probably better than Favors...but unless he's playing major minutes and supplanting someone like Bogey, it's not going to make major difference. The key issue is that our key players can't defend. If the key guys are they same key guys, I don't have an expectation that things will change.

You are flat out wrong on RJ… he struggled in the playoffs and settled on a minimum with the clips because he only had minimum offers… if a team had rolled out a 2/10M deal he’d have taken it… especially with a player option on the second year like Dunn got. He was in and out of the rotation earlier in the year as they figured things out. When it all shook out they liked him enough to move Lou.

Dunn isn’t as established as RJ but dude is plenty established. He’s an quality nba rotation player when healthy. The health is the biggest issue.

Fact is that the Clips could have easily said let’s not bring RJ back because we have Bev, Lou, Kennard and are looking for a playmaking PG… if RJ had cost 5M they easily could have rationalized not bringing him back. If they hadn’t they’d have been in trouble in the playoffs. It ain’t much different than Dunn’s situation.

Either way it may or may not be needed but getting Dunn over sifting through young guys is just a much better plan if the budget is right. When he’s healthy he’s in the Pat Bev class of guard defenders and the shot isn’t great obvi… but he can handle the ball, penetrate, and playmake. By all means bring in a few Tuckers, Morgans, Onis, JWFs, Brantleys if you’d like… but those guys typically don’t help their first year… and we are in win now mode.

Our main lineup can defend… Conley is a good defender when healthy. They can’t defend with 2 guys hobbled though… especially with a team that goes five out like the clips can… but teams typically can’t spread us that thin. Ideally we switch out one of our five best guys for a defender but that isn’t gonna be available and it isn’t like swapping Kyle Anderson for Bogey changes that closing lineup in a way that a team can’t get hot like the clips did. The other thing to look at is if Mike and Donovan are healthy that small ball lineup gets wrecked on defense. We were good on offense but not as good as we could have been. The main lineup could be improved but it’s not the main/only issue we had. We got more diverse by adding Gay… who knows… maybe he closes games in place of bogey. The main lineup is not the only lineup that matters and making improvements with guys that play 15 minutes a night is impactful… it all matters. Key guys matter more but margins are slim and making improvements with non-key guys matters a lot. There is also a chance you make a change with a key guys and you **** up a winning formula with the offense… so moving those guys is not always a no brainer and it likely takes something awesome to come free… something awesome doesn’t always free up. There isn’t a Marcus smart store where you can buy Marcus smarts… so sometimes you buy a Kris Dunn even if you don’t need it right now. Maybe when he gets minutes (and he would either through load management or injury) you discover you have something pretty good… at that point you can more confidently trade a JC or Bogey for something that is different… you might settle on something less good than Marcus at that point because Dunn looks good. You can then ramp Dunn up to 20 minutes a night or Gay moves from 15 to 25. You grab as many potential pieces to the puzzle as you can and work out fit as you go. Maybe Dunn becomes Shaq and gets released… the opportunity cost is taking a flier on a guy that has a maybe 2-3% shot at being as good as Dunn is when he’s healthy?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

You don’t need that 100k life insurance policy at work because if you die it won’t support your family, and the $1 premium can get you a small snack off the value menu every month.

This is more like paying the extra premium on my monthly car insurance for my wife for the low deductible plan… based on her driving I’m likely to pay that deductible at some point so it’s prolly worth the premium. There is a chance that money is going to waste.

 

[infection]

You are flat out wrong on RJ… he struggled in the playoffs and settled on a minimum with the clips because he only had minimum offers… if a team had rolled out a 2/10M deal he’d have taken it… especially with a player option on the second year like Dunn got. He was in and out of the rotation earlier in the year as they figured things out. When it all shook out they liked him enough to move Lou.

Dunn isn’t as established as RJ but dude is plenty established. He’s an quality nba rotation player when healthy. The health is the biggest issue.

Fact is that the Clips could have easily said let’s not bring RJ back because we have Bev, Lou, Kennard and are looking for a playmaking PG… if RJ had cost 5M they easily could have rationalized not bringing him back. If they hadn’t they’d have been in trouble in the playoffs. It ain’t much different than Dunn’s situation.

Either way it may or may not be needed but getting Dunn over sifting through young guys is just a much better plan if the budget is right. When he’s healthy he’s in the Pat Bev class of guard defenders and the shot isn’t great obvi… but he can handle the ball, penetrate, and playmake. By all means bring in a few Tuckers, Morgans, Onis, JWFs, Brantleys if you’d like… but those guys typically don’t help their first year… and we are in win now mode.

Our main lineup can defend… Conley is a good defender when healthy. They can’t defend with 2 guys hobbled though… especially with a team that goes five out like the clips can… but teams typically can’t spread us that thin. Ideally we switch out one of our five best guys for a defender but that isn’t gonna be available and it isn’t like swapping Kyle Anderson for Bogey changes that closing lineup in a way that a team can’t get hot like the clips did. The other thing to look at is if Mike and Donovan are healthy that small ball lineup gets wrecked on defense. We were good on offense but not as good as we could have been. The main lineup could be improved but it’s not the main/only issue we had. We got more diverse by adding Gay… who knows… maybe he closes games in place of bogey. The main lineup is not the only lineup that matters and making improvements with guys that play 15 minutes a night is impactful… it all matters. Key guys matter more but margins are slim and making improvements with non-key guys matters a lot. There is also a chance you make a change with a key guys and you **** up a winning formula with the offense… so moving those guys is not always a no brainer and it likely takes something awesome to come free… something awesome doesn’t always free up. There isn’t a Marcus smart store where you can buy Marcus smarts… so sometimes you buy a Kris Dunn even if you don’t need it right now. Maybe when he gets minutes (and he would either through load management or injury) you discover you have something pretty good… at that point you can more confidently trade a JC or Bogey for something that is different… you might settle on something less good than Marcus at that point because Dunn looks good. You can then ramp Dunn up to 20 minutes a night or Gay moves from 15 to 25. You grab as many potential pieces to the puzzle as you can and work out fit as you go. Maybe Dunn becomes Shaq and gets released… the opportunity cost is taking a flier on a guy that has a maybe 2-3% shot at being as good as Dunn is when he’s healthy?

It’s like letting Neto go so you can develop NWG into Neto.

 

[Hekate]

I think I would rather pay Gary Payton II the minimum instead.

 

[KqWIN]

You are flat out wrong on RJ… he struggled in the playoffs and settled on a minimum with the clips because he only had minimum offers… if a team had rolled out a 2/10M deal he’d have taken it… especially with a player option on the second year like Dunn got. He was in and out of the rotation earlier in the year as they figured things out. When it all shook out they liked him enough to move Lou.

Dunn isn’t as established as RJ but dude is plenty established. He’s an quality nba rotation player when healthy. The health is the biggest issue.

Fact is that the Clips could have easily said let’s not bring RJ back because we have Bev, Lou, Kennard and are looking for a playmaking PG… if RJ had cost 5M they easily could have rationalized not bringing him back. If they hadn’t they’d have been in trouble in the playoffs. It ain’t much different than Dunn’s situation.

Either way it may or may not be needed but getting Dunn over sifting through young guys is just a much better plan if the budget is right. When he’s healthy he’s in the Pat Bev class of guard defenders and the shot isn’t great obvi… but he can handle the ball, penetrate, and playmake. By all means bring in a few Tuckers, Morgans, Onis, JWFs, Brantleys if you’d like… but those guys typically don’t help their first year… and we are in win now mode.

Our main lineup can defend… Conley is a good defender when healthy. They can’t defend with 2 guys hobbled though… especially with a team that goes five out like the clips can… but teams typically can’t spread us that thin. Ideally we switch out one of our five best guys for a defender but that isn’t gonna be available and it isn’t like swapping Kyle Anderson for Bogey changes that closing lineup in a way that a team can’t get hot like the clips did. The other thing to look at is if Mike and Donovan are healthy that small ball lineup gets wrecked on defense. We were good on offense but not as good as we could have been. The main lineup could be improved but it’s not the main/only issue we had. We got more diverse by adding Gay… who knows… maybe he closes games in place of bogey. The main lineup is not the only lineup that matters and making improvements with guys that play 15 minutes a night is impactful… it all matters. Key guys matter more but margins are slim and making improvements with non-key guys matters a lot. There is also a chance you make a change with a key guys and you **** up a winning formula with the offense… so moving those guys is not always a no brainer and it likely takes something awesome to come free… something awesome doesn’t always free up. There isn’t a Marcus smart store where you can buy Marcus smarts… so sometimes you buy a Kris Dunn even if you don’t need it right now. Maybe when he gets minutes (and he would either through load management or injury) you discover you have something pretty good… at that point you can more confidently trade a JC or Bogey for something that is different… you might settle on something less good than Marcus at that point because Dunn looks good. You can then ramp Dunn up to 20 minutes a night or Gay moves from 15 to 25. You grab as many potential pieces to the puzzle as you can and work out fit as you go. Maybe Dunn becomes Shaq and gets released… the opportunity cost is taking a flier on a guy that has a maybe 2-3% shot at being as good as Dunn is when he’s healthy?

We can agree to disagree on RJ, we don't know the whole situation. It doesn't really change my opinion on Dunn one way or the other. I never said we should stop acquiring good players or that we have enough. I said I'd rather take a shot on one of the younger players instead. We can pull up a million different counter examples of a vet that may have panned out or former scrub that panned out. Doesn't matter. In this situation, I'd just prefer to have the young guy over Dunn. But this is what the Dunn conversation is. It's an end of roster conversation that doesn't effect the main lineup. What if Dunn breaks into the main rotation? Well what if Oni does? Like I said, if we take the bet on Dunn I don't care. The reason why I would pass on Dunn is because I'd take another flier instead. Not because I'm passing on someone because we have too much. Given the tax implications, I think we can all agree that this decision is already made. $5M while deep into the tax is tough for a player who wouldn't have a spot in a healthy rotation. Dunn may be a flier for what we give up, but not for what he will cost.

I don't think our main lineup can defend. They've gotten blasted two years in a row. While some of the shooting we faced seems unrealistic, I don't think it's a surprise we got destroyed. Even if Conley and Mitchell are healthy, I don't think they're defenders that help you in the playoffs. Conley is very small and an easy switch target. If he's not the target, he provides nothing in rotation. Mitchell could be a good defender, but there seems to be no desire from himself or the coaching staff to improve. Combine that with Bogey and you have 3 guys who should probably be guarding the worst player but also provide nothing in help defense when guarding a poor offensive player. Quin is the main problem, I've said that many times, but even if Quin changes his defensive philosophy I don't think it works because these guys aren't good enough defensively.

I'm not afraid of mixing up a winning formula offensively because we've proven that the offensive is fine without someone. We were amazing without Bogey, then we were amazing without Conley. Our performance in the RS backs this up. If we want to talk about ruining the offensive formula, I think we may have messed something up with the bench because we just replaced two low usage players with high usage players. I'm not too worried about it because it's just the bench and not our main lineup, but that's something I'll be watchin. I have a much bigger fear of getting destroyed defensively because it's happened two years in a row. When I look at our personnel, I don't think it's surprising. 3 guys that can't defend on or off the ball is tough. To me it is a no brainer that we should move one of the key players. I can't reasonably believe that the results will be different if the key players are the same.

Maybe the FO has the exact same mindset as me, but it's just impossible to find a trade....Well that sucks. Winning a championship is hard and I think they did a good job on the margins nonetheless. But I can't really talk myself into the shared optimism about this off season because the concerns I had were not addressed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

We can agree to disagree on RJ, we don't know the whole situation. It doesn't really change my opinion on Dunn one way or the other. I never said we should stop acquiring good players or that we have enough. I said I'd rather take a shot on one of the younger players instead. We can pull up a million different counter examples of a vet that may have panned out or former scrub that panned out. Doesn't matter. In this situation, I'd just prefer to have the young guy over Dunn. But this is what the Dunn conversation is. It's an end of roster conversation that doesn't effect the main lineup. What if Dunn breaks into the main rotation? Well what if Oni does? Like I said, if we take the bet on Dunn I don't care. The reason why I would pass on Dunn is because I'd take another flier instead. Not because I'm passing on someone because we have too much. Given the tax implications, I think we can all agree that this decision is already made. $5M while deep into the tax is tough for a player who wouldn't have a spot in a healthy rotation. Dunn may be a flier for what we give up, but not for what he will cost.

I don't think our main lineup can defend. They've gotten blasted two years in a row. While some of the shooting we faced seems unrealistic, I don't think it's a surprise we got destroyed. Even if Conley and Mitchell are healthy, I don't think they're defenders that help you in the playoffs. Conley is very small and an easy switch target. If he's not the target, he provides nothing in rotation. Mitchell could be a good defender, but there seems to be no desire from himself or the coaching staff to improve. Combine that with Bogey and you have 3 guys who should probably be guarding the worst player but also provide nothing in help defense when guarding a poor offensive player. Quin is the main problem, I've said that many times, but even if Quin changes his defensive philosophy I don't think it works because these guys aren't good enough defensively.

I'm not afraid of mixing up a winning formula offensively because we've proven that the offensive is fine without someone. We were amazing without Bogey, then we were amazing without Conley. Our performance in the RS backs this up. If we want to talk about ruining the offensive formula, I think we may have messed something up with the bench because we just replaced two low usage players with high usage players. I'm not too worried about it because it's just the bench and not our main lineup, but that's something I'll be watchin. I have a much bigger fear of getting destroyed defensively because it's happened two years in a row. When I look at our personnel, I don't think it's surprising. 3 guys that can't defend on or off the ball is tough. To me it is a no brainer that we should move one of the key players. I can't reasonably believe that the results will be different if the key players are the same.

Maybe the FO has the exact same mindset as me, but it's just impossible to find a trade....Well that sucks. Winning a championship is hard and I think they did a good job on the margins nonetheless. But I can't really talk myself into the shared optimism about this off season because the concerns I had were not addressed.

The RJ situation is exactly what I said it is… look it up.

The rest… whatevs I guess… I don’t see how replacing Bogey with Anderson rocks our world and is life changing event but swapping some Niang minutes and maybe some bogey minutes for Gay and JC minutes for Dunn is a meh sandwich. It all matters.

You are underselling Dunn. Oni might be a 3 and D guy but right now neither part of that equation is working. He also looks terrified to dribble. When Dunn is healthy he would be our best perimeter defender.

 

[KqWIN]

The RJ situation is exactly what I said it is… look it up.

The rest… whatevs I guess… I don’t see how replacing Bogey with Anderson rocks our world and is life changing event but swapping some Niang minutes and maybe some bogey minutes for Gay and JC minutes for Dunn is a meh sandwich. It all matters.

You are underselling Dunn. Oni might be a 3 and D guy but right now neither part of that equation is working. He also looks terrified to dribble. When Dunn is healthy he would be our best perimeter defender.

I looked it up and all I could find is "Reggie Jackson is expected to play a prominent role". And he did. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Literally does not add anything to this conversation.

I don't see Dunn as an alternative to JC...to me that's incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'm underselling him, but I don't think they are close to the same class of player. With Quin coaching, that is even less likely.

I do think Bogey for Anderson is a significant change. Those are two drastically different players who would be playing major minutes and closing games. 35+ in the playoffs likely. You want your best guys playing close to 40. That gives you the best chance to win. The main reason why rotations get cut short in the playoffs is not a lack of depth, but a desire to play your best players more minutes.

Obviously Gay becomes a bigger factor the more minutes he plays. If he starts to replace Bogey, particularly in closing lineups, that is the change I'm talking about. But we'll see what his role ends up being. The thought of him replacing Bogey is wishful thinking from me...both that he will be good enough for us to want to sit Bogey and that Quin will be willing to play him.

I'm curious to see how this all works offensively. I know I sound like a broken record...but there are going to have to be some drastic changes in the way guys play next year. Maybe it's more subtle and everyone plays with less usage...however it gets resolved I'm not sure it's a better look for the team.

 

[NAOS]

I mocked him mercilessly for the sandwich bags… he really re-used them.

They’re plastic. We should re-use the **** out of them. They can be washed.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

They’re plastic. We should re-use the **** out of them. They can be washed.

If it was an environment thing I’d have supported him… it was a save money thing… there are like 10 other things he did which were truly amazing.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I looked it up and all I could find is "Reggie Jackson is expected to play a prominent role". And he did. Whatever, it doesn't matter. Literally does not add anything to this conversation.

I don't see Dunn as an alternative to JC...to me that's incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'm underselling him, but I don't think they are close to the same class of player. With Quin coaching, that is even less likely.

I do think Bogey for Anderson is a significant change. Those are two drastically different players who would be playing major minutes and closing games. 35+ in the playoffs likely. You want your best guys playing close to 40. That gives you the best chance to win. The main reason why rotations get cut short in the playoffs is not a lack of depth, but a desire to play your best players more minutes.

Obviously Gay becomes a bigger factor the more minutes he plays. If he starts to replace Bogey, particularly in closing lineups, that is the change I'm talking about. But we'll see what his role ends up being. The thought of him replacing Bogey is wishful thinking from me...both that he will be good enough for us to want to sit Bogey and that Quin will be willing to play him.

I'm curious to see how this all works offensively. I know I sound like a broken record...but there are going to have to be some drastic changes in the way guys play next year. Maybe it's more subtle and everyone plays with less usage...however it gets resolved I'm not sure it's a better look for the team.

You looked up the Woj tweet… which comes from Jackson’s agent… I looked for 30 seconds and you can see a post from a clips writer stating that they aren’t sure what role he will have after being benched in the playoffs and the new addition. It matters because you keep saying that it’s different than a Dunn acquisition because he had a clear role…HE DID NOT. It’s obvious they brought him back because it was a minimum and they figured why not since it’s a minimum. He was in and out of the rotation to start the season. They signed ****ing Patrick Patterson before him. If he was offered more than the minimum elsewhere the clips were going to let him walk… the assessment becomes very similar to what we are doing with Dunn… “Do we really want to pay a player 5M who isn’t going to have an obvious role and is insurance?”.

We shall see what happens… I’m good either way and think the Jazz did much more to address needs than you think. Am not concerned about usage and role for Gay. He is a much better player than Niang. Niang was solid on defense but not forceful at all… in the playoffs he wasn’t nearly as good and his one dimensional nature caught up with him. The clips series was a disaster for him. Gay gives us the option to replace an additional 5 or so Bogey minutes as well. The main lineup is one of the best lineups in basketball, but when 40% of that lineup is hurt to a point they probably shouldn’t play they will be significantly worse. Every move on the margins can have a big impact.

We shall see.