Police Power and Racial Tensions in Ferguson, Missouri

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This is where you lose it. You were doing good then you just default to this and forfeit any ground you where making. IMO at least.

The ground was lost when someone with no policing experience started talking about a difference between the threat of enforcement and 'actual' enforcement.

 

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actual enforcement always carries a threat. This is particularly true when you start ramping up enforcement. This is so basic....

 

[TroutBum]

Oh please!

Don't act like you have respect for hard working anericans.(that includes cops). We already had this discussion dummy, and you already made it clear that anyone who puts in work is stupid, and you got it made because you do as little as possible. Remember that? Remember me sticking up for everyone who makes this thing go (not including you).

Remember your whole purpose in life is to leach off the rest of us. If you don't work then you don't pay taxes. Which means you are getting a free service from the cops when your bitching *** calls for help. Please don't use my police force that I pay for anymore.

Please start having consistency in what you stand for. Douche Bag.

You got the Douche Bag part right, but other than that, your post is one super long skid mark in the jock strap of truth. Anyone who knows even a little bit about me knows how I roll when it comes to cops. If you were so inclined, you could read past posts. I know you won't, because you're a lazy clown, but there it is. Proof, as they say, is in the pudding.

And just in case anyone didn't understand what s4b was talking about earlier, he is proud that he has the mental capacity of your average light bulb and is forced to work manual labor. Good for him, I did it a lot too when I was younger, and I loved it. On the flip side though, anyone who doesn't do manual labor is a vagina and a tick on the tip of society's wang. People who realize they can make a life by working smarter, not harder, are also filthy leeches.

In my 37 years on this earth I can't remember one time that I have needed assistance from the police and received it. I have however had my head spilt open by be being slammed into a brick wall by a cop at school because I mooned a classmate when I was 16 years old. And been harassed numerous times. And arrested for having a small amount of pot (luckily I was 17 at the time)

Wonder what it is I'm paying for.

I have called the cops when people were doing illegal fireworks near my house after midnight..... nothing was done.
My car gets broken into.... I call the cops. Didn't do any good.
My fence is always getting tagged and nothing we keep sending pictures I to the police but nothing is ever done. (We asked for a streetlight to be put on our corner, to no avail)

I love you Fish, you know this, but other than making a phone call, what have you done? Your city has over 100k people in it and your police force has how many officers? I am too lazy to look up the stats, but each officer is responsible for an unfathomable amount of people statistically, and unfortunately, real life is not NCIS; they don't have the time or resources to investigate every little thing.

That being said, the squeaky wheel usually gets the grease. Have a reoccurring problem? Take it to your next council meeting. They are, after all, your representative and in charge of monitoring and often hiring/firing/payroll of the police department. A phone call without followup simply won't cut it, man. Take it a step further and call the Chief and schedule a ride-along with one of the officers. I've been on a few of them and I promise you, you'll have a much deeper understanding and respect for what they do, and in some cases, don't do. Also, it's damn fun.

Here is a prime example of what I'm talking about:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/bennionpark/688077471270386/?notif_t=group_activity

There is a pinned post about graffiti at the top, from maybe a week or so ago. A little bit of action demands a lot of reaction. On that same page you'll see how a group of neighbors who are fed up with the graffiti and crime have put together a Neighborhood Watch, along with a get together to unite the community. The last Neighborhood Watch group that got together was in my district and the mayor, chief of police, and a handfull of officers were there in support of the effort. This is all happening in T-Ville, and it's because people chose to get involved instead of just sitting at their computer and bitching about all the worthless pigs.

Perhaps the only way to fix that issue is to increase the salaries for the police force in order to get a better recruit. Would you agree?

As much as it hurts, I agree with this 100%. I don't know if raises are a good idea, or if it would lead to better recruitment, but the money officers are paid is only slightly less disturbing than what our teachers are paid.

How do you suppose we should raise the revenue required to pay police officers more??

That is the rub right there. Having sat through four T-Ville FY budget hearings and literally hundreds of hours of budget talks, I can assure you that police services are near the bottom of the priority list. It's sad when the chief has to stand before the council and beg for certain necessities that should already be in place, only to be turned down because the money just isn't available. Of course, the city can spend $10k on a float for the 24th of July parade, or reimburse gas mileage to the tune of $30k without so much as batting an eye. Could the city raise taxes and get the funds? Of course they could. Of course, we all know how the majority of Utahn's feel about paying more taxes, regardless of what it's for.

We do not need to raise the revenue, it is already there. There were threads on that in GD a year or two ago I believe. First place I'd start is reviewing, and cutting, all foreign aid and all research projects. Even military ones.

It is already there, but most of the police you'll ever have to deal with are paid locally, by city tax dollars. Go google any city's budget from last year and even the layest of laymen would be able to find unbelievable quantities of pork that could and should be cut. I'd bet not one person out of a thousand has ever looked at their city's budget before though, which is why nothing ever happens.

 

[fishonjazz]

1)Legalize and tax marijuana

2 birds with one stone.

Don't need as many cops, and have more money to pay the ones we do need

 

[TroutBum]

1)Legalize and tax marijuana

2)Fire 1/4 of all police and increase the salaries of those that remain. I understand this wouldn't be acceptable everywhere but I think here in Utah at least we have more officers than we need.

There would be boatloads of cash left over tbh

This is crazy. In 2012, SLC had just over 2 cops for every 1,000 people. To contrast, Washington, D.C. leads the nations with over 6 per 1,000. West Valley has 1.4. West Jordan has less than one officer for every thousand residents. Keep in mind, these officers don't work 24 hours a day, so you can essentially cut the stats in half and still be over the mark. Something else to keep in mind, if an officer is doing anything more than issuing a minor citation, there is usually at least one officer playing backup. You can do the math yourself and realize that Utah is certainly not suffering from an overabundance of police officers, and in fact, is severely lacking in some cities.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/...ta-rates-employment-for-city-departments.html

 

[candrew]

2 birds with one stone.

Don't need as many cops, and have more money to pay the ones we do need

I don't know if it's a question of more money. In the last 5 years the state of Missouri has received 70 million dollars in federal money to support law enforcement.

https://www.newrepublic.com/article/119081/militarized-police-response-michael-brown-protests-911-legacy

This of course does not include state and local and property taxes spent on the police. If you look at the pictures of Ferguson MO over the last few days and you see all the fancy riot gear, weapons and vehicles, I think it's readily apparent the cops have plenty of money. Not sure how much of that is going into training though.

 

[fishonjazz]

I love you Fish, you know this, but other than making a phone call, what have you done? Your city has over 100k people in it and your police force has how many officers? I am too lazy to look up the stats, but each officer is responsible for an unfathomable amount of people statistically, and unfortunately, real life is not NCIS; they don't have the time or resources to investigate every little thing.

I agree and honestly don't expect the cops to do anything about the graffiti or the car break in cause I don't see what they could do.... but that is not really the problem our my point.

I believe cops need to pump thier breaks a little, and learn to figure out how to police appropriately. Choose thier battles so to speak.

If I'm joking around and I moon my friend (not hurting anyone) maybe instead of smacking my head against a brick wall and slapping cuffs on.....how about just telling me to knock it off, give me a warning instead of kicking my ***.

I got arrested for peeing in an empty field at dark because I couldn't make it to a bathroom. Maybe let that one go. (No one is being hurt or in danger)

I was at iggys with a friend a few years ago getting dinner and watching an nba playoff game and I had one beer over about an hour of time. On the way home a driver slams his breaks in front of me and so I hit his rear bumper.
The cops show up and he smells my drunk friend in the car and assumes (incorrectly) that I'm drunk.
So he administers the sobriety tests and I pass them all and he says let's do a breathalyzer.
I blow 0.02 and figure im good cause I didn't break any law.
He gives me an alcohol related wreckless driving ticket.

I go to court and ask the judge "why did I get an alcohol related ticket when I was well under the legal limit"? He said it's up to the officers descretion.
So basically that officer has the power/authority to pick and choose who he wants to give that citation to. Doesn't matter if you are breaking the law our not.


So like I said...... I have never had a positive experience with the police in my entire life..... but I have had some negative ones.
I don't require positive experiences with them to not have a problem with them but maybe if once in a while when im caught doing something wrong, that has no victim or any danger to anyone, they could just give me a warning and chill out instead of being so military like.

They need to pick thier battles and prioritize crimes better imo

 

[♪alt13]

2 birds with one stone.

Don't need as many cops, and have more money to pay the ones we do need

yeah buddy

This is crazy. In 2012, SLC had just over 2 cops for every 1,000 people. To contrast, Washington, D.C. leads the nations with over 6 per 1,000. West Valley has 1.4. West Jordan has less than one officer for every thousand residents. Keep in mind, these officers don't work 24 hours a day, so you can essentially cut the stats in half and still be over the mark. Something else to keep in mind, if an officer is doing anything more than issuing a minor citation, there is usually at least one officer playing backup. You can do the math yourself and realize that Utah is certainly not suffering from an overabundance of police officers, and in fact, is severely lacking in some cities.

https://www.governing.com/gov-data/...ta-rates-employment-for-city-departments.html

Apples to oranges alert

Washington D.C. and SLC are not comparable. If number of officers determines public safety why don't you move your family to D.C.?

I don't think 1 in every 500 SLC residents needs policing. I would say that 99% need no policing at all. At least 99 out of 100 people that live in my neighborhood do not require a police force to be good citizens and good neighbors.

If it was my call I would push for less beat cops and more detectives. I want people that can follow and collect evidence in my police force not people justifying their jobs by writing as many tickets as they can and harassing people.

For the record I actually think SLC proper does a decent job and I like chief Burbank.(That's partly why I live in SLC) Elsewhere in the state the police force is completely out of hand imo. Utah county has extremely harassment oriented police forces in just about every city.

 

[Stoked]

The ground was lost when someone with no policing experience started talking about a difference between the threat of enforcement and 'actual' enforcement.

Do you have policing experience? If not then how do you know any better than them based on that logic?

Also justifying your behavior on the behavior of others is beneath you imo.

 

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Do you have policing experience? If not then how do you know any better than them based on that logic?

Also justifying your behavior on the behavior of others is beneath you imo.

The president of my company and all his core staff are former policemen and women and former military. I've run all my comments in this thread by them before posting.

 

[Stoked]

As much as it hurts, I agree with this 100%. I don't know if raises are a good idea, or if it would lead to better recruitment, but the money officers are paid is only slightly less disturbing than what our teachers are paid.

It is already there, but most of the police you'll ever have to deal with are paid locally, by city tax dollars. Go google any city's budget from last year and even the layest of laymen would be able to find unbelievable quantities of pork that could and should be cut. I'd bet not one person out of a thousand has ever looked at their city's budget before though, which is why nothing ever happens.

I agree that policemen and teachers are underpaid. I'd also want to look at the slaries for other first responders.

But I couldn't agree more on the fat in spending even at local levels. But even if more revenue was needed, and its not, then we could legalize marijuana and tax it. That also saves us the money we would spend to enforce marijuana laws (police expenditure, court costs, encarceration...)

 

[HighlandHomie]

I did and it clearly shows that some are peaceful and some are not. Such as some now using molotov cocktails. It also does not mention if the peaceful protesters and the violent ones are in seperate protests. I'm not surprised that you are unwilling to show any intellectual honesty on this issue.

Now that I've handled that crap...just read that the police are now no longer usng just tear gas and rubber bullets. They now have automatic weapons, APCs and concussion grenades.

All I see is the hardliners of each side upping the ante. This is looking extremely bad and I do not like the precedent this sets on acceptable police armament and action.

Looting was done by an iota of a percentage of the protesters, and done well after the police fully equipped with tanks, dogs, and rifles showed up while they gathered to mourn.

 

[♪alt13]

The president of my company and all his core staff are former policemen and women and former military. I've run all my comments in this thread by them before posting.

I can second this my neighbor is a retired cop and he thinks the police force has gotten out of hand. My step father is an ex parole officer and he changed occupations due to what he saw as a broken system of harassment.

We are to blame for asking our officers to enforce too many laws. I imagine an officer that chose not to harass every twenty something that he suspected smoked pot would not advance up the ladder if he/she even managed to keep his/her job.


For the record. I don't smoke pot. I tried it and hated it. I have spent many hours being searched over the years though. I have never had a drug conviction for all the time the police force has wasted.

 

[LogGrad98]

The president of my company and all his core staff are former policemen and women and former military. I've run all my comments in this thread by them before posting.

You work at hooters?

 

[LogGrad98]

https://www.theonion.com/articles/t...ocialMarketing&utm_campaign=Default:1:Default

 

[One Brow]

This is basically my experience with the police. Something gets tagged or stolen and they simply don't care. When I was 20 I had a guy break into my house in the middle of the night. I chased him out but was unable to pursue due to being in the nude. I called the police to report the man and they didn't even show up. I have been harassed by the police and I don't know anyone with a story of how the police had personally helped them.

I know that cops do some good and that there are decent reasonable officers out there but from my perspective it seems that the job is 5% service and 95% state sponsored harassment.

I've had police give me a ride, sometimes when it was wanted, sometimes just to get me out of their city. They are all just human, with all the human strengths and weaknesses. One of those weaknesses is that they respond to their training and how they are equipped. In one city, when my car stalled, a police officer helped push it out of the way. In another, they forbade me to call my own tow truck, and I had to pay $200 for it to be towed a few blocks. If the second police officer had worked for the first city, I'm sure he would have helped to push the car.

 

[Stoked]

Looting was done by an iota of a percentage of the protesters, and done well after the police fully equipped with tanks, dogs, and rifles showed up while they gathered to mourn.

Incorrect, the looting, arson and rioting was there from the beginning.

The police used APCs, assault rifles and concussion grenades after a couple days.

K9 units, riot shields, rubber bullets and tear gas were the initial methods used. They were there from the start as was the looting and rioting.

 

[One Brow]

One of the biggest problems is we trust mostly uneducated people to protect us. Generally, to become a cop all you need is a high school degree, yet we expect this people to make logical decisions in high pressure situations. Of course bad things will happen.

Not to say there are not many good, smart, hard-working officers out there, I just think most aren't.

I think there is additional training beyond high school required for most urban/suburban police departments. It's a steady job with decent pay, and that's hard to come be for many communities, so the police probably can be somewhat selective in whom they hire.

 

[Stoked]

Honest question One Brow.

How would you feel about changing the group that investigates police shootings? Perhaps groups of 4-5 people. Have 1-2 CSI guys (not with the PD, or 1 PD and 1 non PD), a homicide detective (PD affiliated), a laywer/judge (non PD) and maybe a civil rights advocate. Mix the group up along race, gender, political leanings and religion(including agnostics and athiests) lines.

Do you fell that it inspire greater confidence in the initial system? Minorities particularly?

 

[One Brow]

If you look at the pictures of Ferguson MO over the last few days and you see all the fancy riot gear, weapons and vehicles, I think it's readily apparent the cops have plenty of money. Not sure how much of that is going into training though.

More importantly, which type of training?

Last night, state troopers took over in Ferguson. Cops in riot gear were sent well outside the protest areas, generally a mile or more. Cops in the area were in regular uniforms, often mixed in with the protesters, listening and responding. The results was a much more peaceful protest and no arrests. Repression encourages behaviors that need repressing.