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The Offseason Cha-cha-changes Thread

NUMBERICA said:
The problem with trading him for win now pieces is that it dramatically constrains the return in assets because teams that are trying to win are not trying to trade their win-now players.

Those teams with draft picks on the other hand is an entirely different story. Gobert could land a raft of picks. I just don't see much in the way of players for the teams that are willing to go after him.
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Maybe….The teams trading for Rudy are less likely to have a lot of future assets because they’re already good. Teams trying to win now will still trade win now pieces for Rudy because Rudy is a way better win now piece.

It’s possible you can get the boatload of picks and future pick swaps…but I think those trades suck for the team moving the stat. Ainge is not going to get lucky trading Rudy as he did trading the old Celtics players.

I keep coming back to ATL as the most likely destination. They have a wide variety of assets and the Jazz could get whatever type of deal they’re looking for if ATL wants Rudy (they really should want Rudy). They’ve got all their picks, extra picks, very young players, youngish players, and vets as well.
 
mongoose01 said:
Even if Mitchell suddenly was willing to play the point
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I’ve seen this mentioned a couple times in this thread. Is there some quote saying he refused to play pg somewhere? 82games shows him having played pg more than sg this season (and his success rate was much higher at pg)
 
5 years ago, Rudy was a rising player, but we lost Hayward. Our franchise was pretty much all "gloom and doom". We had some okay players on the fringes, but nothing to get excited about.

Enter Donovan who completely changed the narrative. Rudy improved, Don emerged and we became relevant. Before Don did emerge, nobody here thought we had any chance of being good without Hayward.

In many ways, we are in the same spot now. Without either Don or Rudy, nobody thinks are anything special. A Don trade probably gets us more draft assets than enough fire power to overcome our weak roster.

A Rudy trade puts a lot of faith into a Don led initiative. 5 years ago, we didn't think we had much yet we overachieved. Rudy was given the next 5 years to become what he has. We didn't trade Rudy for a rebuild, we trusted him. We should give Don the same respect. At 25, he is well ahead of where Rudy was at the same age. Don hasnt even entered his prime.

We don't have to trade either if we want to stay a 1st round exit team. If we want to hope for a title in the next 10 years, we have to hitch our wagon to Don, and we need to hope we find our next unanticipated gem. Retooling around Rudy is irresponsible and going scorched earth isn't the Jazz way. We didn't do it to Rudy so we shouldn't do it to Don.

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KqWIN said:
Maybe….The teams trading for Rudy are less likely to have a lot of future assets because they’re already good. Teams trying to win now will still trade win now pieces for Rudy because Rudy is a way better win now piece.

It’s possible you can get the boatload of picks and future pick swaps…but I think those trades suck for the team moving the stat. Ainge is not going to get lucky trading Rudy as he did trading the old Celtics players.

I keep coming back to ATL as the most likely destination. They have a wide variety of assets and the Jazz could get whatever type of deal they’re looking for if ATL wants Rudy (they really should want Rudy). They’ve got all their picks, extra picks, very young players, youngish players, and vets as well.
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I agree the teams that are looking to add Rudy at teams that are hovering between the 4th and 9th seeds in their respective conferences. These teams need that extra big piece to try and contend. Some of these teams like Atlanta with a win now player such as Collins look at this as trying something new. Same thing we should be doing.


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LoPo said:
5 years ago, Rudy was a rising player, but we lost Hayward. Our franchise was pretty much all "gloom and doom". We had some okay players on the fringes, but nothing to get excited about.

Enter Donovan who completely changed the narrative. Rudy improved, Don emerged and we became relevant. Before Don did emerge, nobody here thought we had any chance of being good without Hayward.

In many ways, we are in the same spot now. Without either Don or Rudy, nobody thinks are anything special. A Don trade probably gets us more draft assets than enough fire power to overcome our weak roster.

A Rudy trade puts a lot of faith into a Don led initiative. 5 years ago, we didn't think we had much yet we overachieved. Rudy was given the next 5 years to become what he has. We didn't trade Rudy for a rebuild, we trusted him. We should give Don the same respect. At 25, he is well ahead of where Rudy was at the same age. Don hasnt even entered his prime.

We don't have to trade either if we want to stay a 1st round exit team. If we want to hope for a title in the next 10 years, we have to hitch our wagon to Don, and we need to hope we find our next unanticipated gem. Retooling around Rudy is irresponsible and going scorched earth isn't the Jazz way. We didn't do it to Rudy so we shouldn't do it to Don.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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I’ve thought someone might bring this up, but it’s simply untrue. We have five fewer years left of Gobert. We don’t have a pick to draft a player or to trade this year. Because of the pick owed to OKC, the value of any pick we could send gets weird and probably have to send an extremely-lightly protected or wholly unprotected pick several years in the future which could be crippling. We functionally don’t even have 2nd rounders for the rest of the decade.

Who is the Donovan to replace the Hayward; a situation that you couldn’t playback with all the planning in the world since we got ****ing lucky and is not something we get to control. We are all the way capped the **** out and won’t have the full MLE available even if they wanted to spend it, and they won’t (or at least shouldn’t) spend the taxpayer MLE. Those teams were a couple years from having two max cap slots, in large part due to Donovan being on a rookie scale contract. And we don’t have a situation to sell to a big name free agent as the Jazz’s toxic locker room is the most open joke of a secret in the league.

VERY importantly, Ingles (absolutely one of a kind) is gone. Hood ended up being trash but we don’t have anyone waiting in the wings to take a theoretical step like we did him. Quin doesn’t have the shine he did then, but maybe more importantly we don’t have Igor or Bryant on the staff.

I actually see as few parallels as there could be for a team that still technically has their pillars (Quin, Gobert, Mitchell). This team is at a dead end and everyone being honest with themselves knows that. It’s not just the sensationalist national pundits that see all of this, it’s everyone I’ve seen in the national media including Lowe and KOC.

The Jazz trying to improve from here are a person that have bet almost everything - including the clothes on their back - putting their car keys on the table to win one hand. When they lose that one, will they put the deed to their house on the table for the next hand?

There is nowhere to go with this squad that is worth a ****. The prospect is a delusion bordering on hallucination.
 
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NUMBERICA said:
I’ve thought someone might bring this up, but it’s simply untrue. We have five fewer years left of Gobert. We don’t have a pick to draft a player or to trade this year. Because of the pick owed to OKC, the value of any pick we could send gets weird and probably have to send an extremely-lightly protected or wholly unprotected pick several years in the future which could be crippling. We functionally don’t even have 2nd rounders for the rest of the decade.

Who is the Donovan to replace the Hayward; a situation that you couldn’t playback with all the planning in the world since we got ****ing lucky and is not something we get to control. We are all the way capped the **** out and won’t have the full MLE available even if they wanted to spend it, and they won’t (or at least shouldn’t) spend the taxpayer MLE. Those teams were a couple years from having two max cap slots, in large part due to Donovan being on a rookie scale contract. And we don’t have a situation to sell to a big name free agent as the Jazz’s toxic locker room is the most open joke of a secret in the league.

VERY importantly, Ingles (absolutely one of a kind) is gone. Hood ended up being trash but we don’t have anyone waiting in the wings to take a theoretical step like we did him. Quin doesn’t have the shine he did then, but maybe more importantly we don’t have Igor or Bryant on the staff.

I actually see as few parallels as there could be for a team that still technically has their pillars (Quin, Gobert, Mitchell). This team is at a dead end and everyone being honest with themselves knows that. It’s not just the sensationalist national pundits that see all of this, it’s everyone I’ve seen in the national media including Lowe and KOC.

The Jazz trying to improve from here are a person that have bet almost everything - including the clothes on their back -putting their car keys on the table to win one hand. When they lose that one, will they putting deed to their house for the next one?

There is nowhere to go with this squad that is worth a ****. The prospect is a delusion bordering on hallucination.
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But we have the system.
 
Hearsky said:
A paper bag would be a defensive upgrade from DM.
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I was thinking that at least a traffic cone wouldn't literally step out of the way. At least it would stand its ground.
 
homeytennis said:
But we have the system.
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This is partly why I believe we are mostly going to roll it all back again, basically the same players, maybe a few moves around the fringes billed as "retooling" and maybe a "savvy vet" added to the mix to replace Gay if we can use a pick to dump him since he is obviously either completely washed or will not be allowed to play. Either way my bet is we see essentially the same team back again next year. No one wants Conley, not even us, but we can't move him for anything close to equal value. No one wants an aging Bogey, although he might have the most value after his decent defensive efforts in the playoffs this year and the fact he can shoot, and shooters are highly prized. No one wants Gay, unless it is a salary dump and we give up a pick to move him. No one wants Royce. No matter what the media says, he got cooked again and again by Brunson and others while he was trying to cover for Donovan's defensive failings, which are MASSIVE. I mean honestly we have no assets worth moving except Donovan and Rudy, and with this franchise and its aversion to risk, I cannot see them moving one of them, let alone both in some kind of scorched earth rebuild.

So my bet is, we see essentially the same team back again. Maybe they get their mojo back enough to get either Mitchell or Gobert into the all star game so we have a good showing as the home town crowd for the clown circus....uh I mean all star game next year. Maybe after one more year of futility they will make some kind of major move, but I just don't see it happening this year.

I think the only catalyst for a move this year would be Mitchell demanding changes and the FO capitulating to cater to their "star" regardless of the fact that the stats show Gobert is far far more important to winning. If they move Gobert and do not focus on a complete defensive approach to the retool at that point we will see a season of near .500 ball and likely play-in end of the season, if we can even muster that many wins.

Keeping essentially the same core and moving Gobert for other random mid-level pieces without a focus on improving overall defense in some way is a sure path to the lottery.
 
LoPo said:
5 years ago, Rudy was a rising player, but we lost Hayward. Our franchise was pretty much all "gloom and doom". We had some okay players on the fringes, but nothing to get excited about.

Enter Donovan who completely changed the narrative. Rudy improved, Don emerged and we became relevant. Before Don did emerge, nobody here thought we had any chance of being good without Hayward.

In many ways, we are in the same spot now. Without either Don or Rudy, nobody thinks are anything special. A Don trade probably gets us more draft assets than enough fire power to overcome our weak roster.

A Rudy trade puts a lot of faith into a Don led initiative. 5 years ago, we didn't think we had much yet we overachieved. Rudy was given the next 5 years to become what he has. We didn't trade Rudy for a rebuild, we trusted him. We should give Don the same respect. At 25, he is well ahead of where Rudy was at the same age. Don hasnt even entered his prime.

We don't have to trade either if we want to stay a 1st round exit team. If we want to hope for a title in the next 10 years, we have to hitch our wagon to Don, and we need to hope we find our next unanticipated gem. Retooling around Rudy is irresponsible and going scorched earth isn't the Jazz way. We didn't do it to Rudy so we shouldn't do it to Don.

Sent from my SM-A516U using JazzFanz mobile app
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Rudy was out and we bottomed out 10 games out of the 8th seed. Rudy returned and we ended up in the 5th seed. I get that you’re playing up what you feel is neglected Donovan information, but your “surviving post-Hayward” narrative is very incomplete.
 
infection said:
Rudy was out and we bottomed out 10 games out of the 8th seed. Rudy returned and we ended up in the 5th seed. I get that you’re playing up what you feel is neglected Donovan information, but your “surviving post-Hayward” narrative is very incomplete.
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A team is always better when one of the best players and the team's focus returns to the lineup. That's not rocket science.

I'm pretty sure you got my point though. Everybody should. When Hayward left, we all thought we were destined to take a step back. We actually took a step forward, but I bet you're willing to say it was because of Rudy. Hell, the sun don't shine without Rudy.
 
LoPo said:
A team is always better when one of the best players and the team's focus returns to the lineup. That's not rocket science.

I'm pretty sure you got my point though. Everybody should. When Hayward left, we all thought we were destined to take a step back. We actually took a step forward, but I bet you're willing to say it was because of Rudy. Hell, the sun don't shine without Rudy.
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Who's we? Go back and look, even when we were out 10 back I was saying our time to compete was now, we needed to trade our pick for tangible players, and that when Rudy returned we would be much better and be in playoff contention. It doesn't matter what people thought. The reality is that the "doom and gloom" was a result of people not recognizing how much of an effect Rudy would have. The whole "built around Rudy" idea is silly because the way we handled defense before and after summer of 2019 is drastically different. The failures of what you're seeing of "being built around Rudy" is a willful scheme Quin has implemented post-summer 2019 where he emphasized extreme funneling to Rudy, rather than letting guys play aggressive on the perimeter because of Rudy. If we had a competent coach and FO, we could get back to that pre-2019 strategy without sacrificing much. But the biggest problem is that most people think the defensive strategy has been continuous and that it's just been "exposed," when it's actually changed.
 
infection said:
Who's we? Go back and look, even when we were out 10 back I was saying our time to compete was now, we needed to trade our pick for tangible players, and that when Rudy returned we would be much better and be in playoff contention. It doesn't matter what people thought. The reality is that the "doom and gloom" was a result of people not recognizing how much of an effect Rudy would have. The whole "built around Rudy" idea is silly because the way we handled defense before and after summer of 2019 is drastically different. The failures of what you're seeing of "being built around Rudy" is a willful scheme Quin has implemented post-summer 2019 where he emphasized extreme funneling to Rudy, rather than letting guys play aggressive on the perimeter because of Rudy. If we had a competent coach and FO, we could get back to that pre-2019 strategy without sacrificing much. But the biggest problem is that most people think the defensive strategy has been continuous and that it's just been "exposed," when it's actually changed.
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The flip from good perimeter defenders… and another interior presence wasn’t working on offense so they switched out too many parts… and the scheme had to change a little bit we went to never committing anything that remotely looks like a foul… and guys liked it cuz it’s easy… then we quickly went to softer than charmin. It makes sense…
It’s no fun to play like Marcus Smart did yesterday… I just don’t know how we didn’t adjust from the Denver series until now. It wasn’t hard to see.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
The flip from good perimeter defenders… and another interior presence wasn’t working on offense so they switched out too many parts… and the scheme had to change a little bit we went to never committing anything that remotely looks like a foul… and guys liked it cuz it’s easy… then we quickly went to softer than charmin. It makes sense…
It’s no fun to play like Marcus Smart did yesterday… I just don’t know how we didn’t adjust from the Denver series until now. It wasn’t hard to see.
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There was a longer post that I was going to respond to a couple comments from another thread, but a big part of it was our defensive teams weren't just "yeah give them easy shots to guide them to Rudy." Rudy was there as the backstop, allowing them to play tighter on the perimeter. Then Rudy was also able to go out to challenge shots because we actually had someone cover the rim and box out (Favors). To say that Rudy has been "exposed" in the playoffs is ridiculous, because this stuff would never be able to happen in 2018 when we had guys like Jae and Thabo putting effort to contest shots on the perimeter, or even before the Donovan teams having people play defense before Quin enacted some really, really bad habits, of which those habits have "been exposed" three post-seasons in a row.
 
infection said:
Who's we? Go back and look, even when we were out 10 back I was saying our time to compete was now, we needed to trade our pick for tangible players, and that when Rudy returned we would be much better and be in playoff contention. It doesn't matter what people thought. The reality is that the "doom and gloom" was a result of people not recognizing how much of an effect Rudy would have. The whole "built around Rudy" idea is silly because the way we handled defense before and after summer of 2019 is drastically different. The failures of what you're seeing of "being built around Rudy" is a willful scheme Quin has implemented post-summer 2019 where he emphasized extreme funneling to Rudy, rather than letting guys play aggressive on the perimeter because of Rudy. If we had a competent coach and FO, we could get back to that pre-2019 strategy without sacrificing much. But the biggest problem is that most people think the defensive strategy has been continuous and that it's just been "exposed," when it's actually changed.
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I was talking about pre-Don and post-Don. If I'm misreading you on the timing, that's my fault.

What we do is built around Rudy, but I do like what we did pre-2019 better. The coaching has gotten worse and worse.

The defensive change has led to the exposing exacerbated by the fact that we don't have a single great perimeter defender to help shut down the primary guy on the other team.
 
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