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The Offseason Cha-cha-changes Thread

infection said:
There was a longer post that I was going to respond to a couple comments from another thread, but a big part of it was our defensive teams weren't just "yeah give them easy shots to guide them to Rudy." Rudy was there as the backstop, allowing them to play tighter on the perimeter. Then Rudy was also able to go out to challenge shots because we actually had someone cover the rim and box out (Favors). To say that Rudy has been "exposed" in the playoffs is ridiculous, because this stuff would never be able to happen in 2018 when we had guys like Jae and Thabo putting effort to contest shots on the perimeter, or even before the Donovan teams having people play defense before Quin enacted some really, really bad habits, of which those habits have "been exposed" three post-seasons in a row.
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Hard to believe that we went from Jae, Joe, Rubio and Thabo to nobody as good. Shocking really.
 
LoPo said:
I was talking about pre-Don and post-Don. If I'm misreading you on the timing, that's my fault.

What we do is built around Rudy, but I do like what we did pre-2019 better. The coaching has gotten worse and worse.

The defensive change has led to the exposing exacerbated by the fact that we don't have a single great perimeter defender to help shut down the primary guy on the other team.
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You keep saying the system is exposed with Rudy. You keep saying that Rudy's effect appears good because we build the whole system around him. Then you appeal to it falling apart by referencing the past few years when we've gone away from showing the strength of what you can do with Rudy. You referencing him being played off the floor or whatever are issues of Quin's scheming that's changed over the past few years as he used Rudy as a crutch and not as a tool.
 
infection said:
You keep saying the system is exposed with Rudy. You keep saying that Rudy's effect appears good because we build the whole system around him. Then you appeal to it falling apart by referencing the past few years when we've gone away from showing the strength of what you can do with Rudy. You referencing him being played off the floor or whatever are issues of Quin's scheming that's changed over the past few years as he used Rudy as a crutch and not as a tool.
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I think I've been pretty consistent. I believe that Rudy is a very good player. Whatever this system has been the last few years, which is built around Rudy, does not work in the playoffs. I'm not directly blaming Rudy.

I have said that Rudy and Don could work together provided the right surrounding personnel. We failed them in providing that. It's not Rudy's fault or Don's fault. Like I said earlier, we have gone from Jae, Rubio, Thabo and a younger Joe to not having anyone who can guard at that level.

I'm all for trading Rudy now because I realize that we have zero shot to add the necessary perimeter defenders. Had we drafted Bane or Herb Jones, we could be fine. We didn't. Adding an Oni or even a House is a weak bandaid. Rudy has a lot of value right now. Trade him, and see what we can get. Depending on what we get, trade more and maybe even trade Don if he wants gone.
 
infection said:
You keep saying the system is exposed with Rudy. You keep saying that Rudy's effect appears good because we build the whole system around him. Then you appeal to it falling apart by referencing the past few years when we've gone away from showing the strength of what you can do with Rudy. You referencing him being played off the floor or whatever are issues of Quin's scheming that's changed over the past few years as he used Rudy as a crutch and not as a tool.
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Lopo is too dumb to really makes sense of what he says, but the system is built around Rudy's ability to defend. Like, "Rudy is soo good let's run this thing where we put dudes who can't really play D cuz Rudy is so good".

So the system isn't built to make Gobert look good, it's built on the idea that Gobert can make others look better than they are. Gobert is not exposed. The bad defenders are exposed. I don't think Utah ever accounted for how bad Mitchell would get on defense. Hell we have been bringing in PGs for the sole purpose to keep Mitchell's workload from being too high so he could still do things like defense (but Bitchell is trash).

Lopo tries to flip the narrative to protect his dear Bitchell. But the narrative is known now. There are too many extremely smart NBA media members to have talked about what the real issue is, and it's Bitchell first and foremost.
 
infection said:
You keep saying the system is exposed with Rudy. You keep saying that Rudy's effect appears good because we build the whole system around him. Then you appeal to it falling apart by referencing the past few years when we've gone away from showing the strength of what you can do with Rudy. You referencing him being played off the floor or whatever are issues of Quin's scheming that's changed over the past few years as he used Rudy as a crutch and not as a tool.
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One more thing - Rudy is an elite regular season player. The pace of regular season play, how it's coached, how it's addressed schematically, he dominates games. This Quin Rudy system pays off more than it doesn't.

When the playoffs come, the impact isn't the same. We can blame everybody for that. Teammates, coaching, and even Rudy. He gets run around in circles, keeps focusing on protecting the paint, but we give up a barrage of 3 pointers. The numbers just tell a compelling story - the Clippers and Dallas torched us from deep. The easy thing to do (which most around here are doing), is blaming Don and perimeter defending when it's really an issue for the system we're using. It's everybody's fault.
 
LoPo said:
One more thing - Rudy is an elite regular season player. The pace of regular season play, how it's coached, how it's addressed schematically, he dominates games. This Quin Rudy system pays off more than it doesn't.

When the playoffs come, the impact isn't the same. We can blame everybody for that. Teammates, coaching, and even Rudy. He gets run around in circles, keeps focusing on protecting the paint, but we give up a barrage of 3 pointers. The numbers just tell a compelling story - the Clippers and Dallas torched us from deep. The easy thing to do (which most around here are doing), is blaming Don and perimeter defending when it's really an issue for the system we're using. It's everybody's fault.
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Gobert got zero fault for the matador Donovan not staying in front. Good lord.
 
Shade being thrown: "“This isn’t Gobert and Whiteside,” Kidd added. “These guys can put the ball in the basket. So, our bigs are going to be tested.”"
 
infection said:
There was a longer post that I was going to respond to a couple comments from another thread, but a big part of it was our defensive teams weren't just "yeah give them easy shots to guide them to Rudy." Rudy was there as the backstop, allowing them to play tighter on the perimeter. Then Rudy was also able to go out to challenge shots because we actually had someone cover the rim and box out (Favors). To say that Rudy has been "exposed" in the playoffs is ridiculous, because this stuff would never be able to happen in 2018 when we had guys like Jae and Thabo putting effort to contest shots on the perimeter, or even before the Donovan teams having people play defense before Quin enacted some really, really bad habits, of which those habits have "been exposed" three post-seasons in a row.
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I think in the playoffs he has been partly "exposed"... exposed isn't the word limited in ways.

The offense... he is really unable to seal smaller guys... hold them off... and finish. In his defense we don't try it 4-5 times a night because the coach is consumed with we must win this game tonight... eff your development projects, and eff your playoff schemes. The timing and placement of the pass has to be good and the guy has to learn to catch, hold his position and finish. Its harder than it seems in part because Rudy's center of gravity is high and guys are allowed to push real hard down there... especially if they are small.

He was also unable to truly punish them on the offensive glass... I think he was at his regular numbers... but he needs to be above that to the point that teams don't want to play small. Like what we did to the We Believe Warriors... now that maybe something where you have to commit another body to it.

I do think 5 out still hurts him even if you have Thabo, Ricky, and whoever out there. He doesn't want to leave the paint... he doesn't always make the right rotation. That is somewhat on his coach, his teammates but also him. The DFS three where its clear he needs to rotate... the guy bobbled and instead he wants Bogey to leave the corner guy... He didn't come out far enough on Luka when its pretty clear he is taking the step back... Luka really didn't want any part of him on drives (got him once but he's not as fast as say Dinwiddie who you should let shoot the contested three).

The fact is he isn't other worldly like he could be... and that is partly... say 30% on him (give it whatever number you want). Some guys overcome their temmates struggles... its hard when its defense I admit.

Exposed is the wrong word. More limited in say half the playoffs is more like it.

There is a longer post I want to make on the issue with how Quin coaches and positions the team that definitely feeds into this. The core issue is when people say Quin has "tried" things most of the time he has not... like small ball 5 out... we "tried" it when we literally had no choice and clearly hadn't practiced it... and it is likely the answer to the non-Rudy minutes in the playoffs.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Lopo is too dumb to really makes sense of what he says, but the system is built around Rudy's ability to defend. Like, "Rudy is soo good let's run this thing where we put dudes who can't really play D cuz Rudy is so good".

So the system isn't built to make Gobert look good, it's built on the idea that Gobert can make others look better than they are. Gobert is not exposed. The bad defenders are exposed. I don't think Utah ever accounted for how bad Mitchell would get on defense. Hell we have been bringing in PGs for the sole purpose to keep Mitchell's workload from being too high so he could still do things like defense (but Bitchell is trash).

Lopo tries to flip the narrative to protect his dear Bitchell. But the narrative is known now. There are too many extremely smart NBA media members to have talked about what the real issue is, and it's Bitchell first and foremost.
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Both Donovan and Royce were so bad on defense that its tough to evaluate other things. Its really rough too because like Jalen Brunson isn't big and Luka is not great laterally... yet they survived with Kleber and Powell at the rim. DFS is awesome... but yeah. Mike is small and it showed as well.

There is plenty of blame for everyone though... this team didn't play for each other for anything other than a few quarters continuously.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think in the playoffs he has been partly "exposed"... exposed isn't the word limited in ways.

The offense... he is really unable to seal smaller guys... hold them off... and finish. In his defense we don't try it 4-5 times a night because the coach is consumed with we must win this game tonight... eff your development projects, and eff your playoff schemes. The timing and placement of the pass has to be good and the guy has to learn to catch, hold his position and finish. Its harder than it seems in part because Rudy's center of gravity is high and guys are allowed to push real hard down there... especially if they are small.

He was also unable to truly punish them on the offensive glass... I think he was at his regular numbers... but he needs to be above that to the point that teams don't want to play small. Like what we did to the We Believe Warriors... now that maybe something where you have to commit another body to it.

I do think 5 out still hurts him even if you have Thabo, Ricky, and whoever out there. He doesn't want to leave the paint... he doesn't always make the right rotation. That is somewhat on his coach, his teammates but also him. The DFS three where its clear he needs to rotate... the guy bobbled and instead he wants Bogey to leave the corner guy... He didn't come out far enough on Luka when its pretty clear he is taking the step back... Luka really didn't want any part of him on drives (got him once but he's not as fast as say Dinwiddie who you should let shoot the contested three).

The fact is he isn't other worldly like he could be... and that is partly... say 30% on him (give it whatever number you want). Some guys overcome their temmates struggles... its hard when its defense I admit.

Exposed is the wrong word. More limited in say half the playoffs is more like it.

There is a longer post I want to make on the issue with how Quin coaches and positions the team that definitely feeds into this. The core issue is when people say Quin has "tried" things most of the time he has not... like small ball 5 out... we "tried" it when we literally had no choice and clearly hadn't practiced it... and it is likely the answer to the non-Rudy minutes in the playoffs.
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Well said. What I'm thinking exactly. On defense, it's on everybody including Rudy.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think in the playoffs he has been partly "exposed"... exposed isn't the word limited in ways.

The offense... he is really unable to seal smaller guys... hold them off... and finish. In his defense we don't try it 4-5 times a night because the coach is consumed with we must win this game tonight... eff your development projects, and eff your playoff schemes. The timing and placement of the pass has to be good and the guy has to learn to catch, hold his position and finish. Its harder than it seems in part because Rudy's center of gravity is high and guys are allowed to push real hard down there... especially if they are small.

He was also unable to truly punish them on the offensive glass... I think he was at his regular numbers... but he needs to be above that to the point that teams don't want to play small. Like what we did to the We Believe Warriors... now that maybe something where you have to commit another body to it.

I do think 5 out still hurts him even if you have Thabo, Ricky, and whoever out there. He doesn't want to leave the paint... he doesn't always make the right rotation. That is somewhat on his coach, his teammates but also him. The DFS three where its clear he needs to rotate... the guy bobbled and instead he wants Bogey to leave the corner guy... He didn't come out far enough on Luka when its pretty clear he is taking the step back... Luka really didn't want any part of him on drives (got him once but he's not as fast as say Dinwiddie who you should let shoot the contested three).

The fact is he isn't other worldly like he could be... and that is partly... say 30% on him (give it whatever number you want). Some guys overcome their temmates struggles... its hard when its defense I admit.

Exposed is the wrong word. More limited in say half the playoffs is more like it.

There is a longer post I want to make on the issue with how Quin coaches and positions the team that definitely feeds into this. The core issue is when people say Quin has "tried" things most of the time he has not... like small ball 5 out... we "tried" it when we literally had no choice and clearly hadn't practiced it... and it is likely the answer to the non-Rudy minutes in the playoffs.
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It's quite interesting how the narrative has changed on Rudy...at least in online circles. It feels like Don is getting more heat than ever for his defense and people are giving Rudy somewhat of a pass. Don deserves a ton of heat for his lack of defense, and obviously Gobert is not the problem....but I think Gobert played awfully against DAL and because people have come around on the discourse he kind of got away scott free. He's attracted to the paint like a magnet. I think he's more than capable of being a great defender in the playoffs, but like other's under Quin his instincts are completely off. I believe that he would be the best playoff defender in the league if he had better coaching. It's similar to my thoughts on Don's defense. Don is more than capable of being a good defender, but he's picked up poor habits from playing the same way year after year. While it is a product of Quin's system, the players have also got to be better themselves.

I think it's nearly impossible for Gobert to be the RS player he has been in the playoffs. Definitely not because he's exposed and I wouldn't even go as far to say limited (although I understand the sentiment). We just turbo funnel Gobert in the RS, and that's how he's able to have an unmatched defensive presence. It's the defensive version of having prime Harden iso every single play. You're force feeding the action to a great player, and it works because they're great....but in the playoffs teams will not let you get away with that. It's simply not possible for a single defensive player to have the same RS impact Rudy as in the playoffs. Teams are going to attack weaknesses and stress test the overall team defense. It's something to think about because so much of our RS success is predicated on Rudy doing something that's simply not possible in the playoffs.

Offensively, Gobert was really up and down. His teammates did a terrible job of getting him the ball, as always, but he did not do himself favors. He wasn't consistent on the glass, and he dropped so many passes. He's a much better player than what he showed, but he was in his head. You could tell the whole team was facing mental issues and Rudy was not above that. He's got to play better, his teammates got to play with him better, but the offensive criticisms do have validity.
 
I really fundamentally disagree with this notion that Gobert is playing the perimeter soft because he just doesn’t feel like defending. There is absolutely 0 back line defense, and everyone on the floor knows that. In late-clock situations he plays closer because he knows the odds of them getting to the cup are a lot lower. But if he plays tight on the perimeter, the chances of a layup/dunk from either a back-door cut or a blow-by is unacceptably high.

If we had some athleticism, effort, scheme, and even some basic personal pride in getting a stop from anyone then I think the approach changes.
 
KqWIN said:
It's quite interesting how the narrative has changed on Rudy...at least in online circles. It feels like Don is getting more heat than ever for his defense and people are giving Rudy somewhat of a pass. Don deserves a ton of heat for his lack of defense, and obviously Gobert is not the problem....but I think Gobert played awfully against DAL and because people have come around on the discourse he kind of got away scott free. He's attracted to the paint like a magnet. I think he's more than capable of being a great defender in the playoffs, but like other's under Quin his instincts are completely off. I believe that he would be the best playoff defender in the league if he had better coaching. It's similar to my thoughts on Don's defense. Don is more than capable of being a good defender, but he's picked up poor habits from playing the same way year after year. While it is a product of Quin's system, the players have also got to be better themselves.

I think it's nearly impossible for Gobert to be the RS player he has been in the playoffs. Definitely not because he's exposed and I wouldn't even go as far to say limited (although I understand the sentiment). We just turbo funnel Gobert in the RS, and that's how he's able to have an unmatched defensive presence. It's the defensive version of having prime Harden iso every single play. You're force feeding the action to a great player, and it works because they're great....but in the playoffs teams will not let you get away with that. It's simply not possible for a single defensive player to have the same RS impact Rudy as in the playoffs. Teams are going to attack weaknesses and stress test the overall team defense. It's something to think about because so much of our RS success is predicated on Rudy doing something that's simply not possible in the playoffs.

Offensively, Gobert was really up and down. His teammates did a terrible job of getting him the ball, as always, but he did not do himself favors. He wasn't consistent on the glass, and he dropped so many passes. He's a much better player than what he showed, but he was in his head. You could tell the whole team was facing mental issues and Rudy was not above that. He's got to play better, his teammates got to play with him better, but the offensive criticisms do have validity.
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This gonna shock you… I agree completely.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I really fundamentally disagree with this notion that Gobert is playing the perimeter soft because he just doesn’t feel like defending. There is absolutely 0 back line defense, and everyone on the floor knows that. In late-clock situations he plays closer because he knows the odds of them getting to the cup are a lot lower. But if he plays tight on the perimeter, the chances of a layup/dunk from either a back-door cut or a blow-by is unacceptably high.

If we had some athleticism, effort, scheme, and even some basic personal pride in getting a stop from anyone then I think the approach changes.
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I think it is what Quin has implanted in his head. I think some of it is he got blown by a few times. Trust is another thing. It did feel like at times that Quin should give him a little more freedom… like if Quin said “hey if you see a good opportunity go ahead and jump on a Brunson midrange shot and see if he makes the right pass for a dunk”. Swatting one of those every so often changes the mental component of a shooter and it seemed they were well within reach if he Brooke scheme and swatted one… we’ve seen this with Whiteside every now and again but he’s the other end of the spectrum… if he has any shot at getting it he’s going for it and it throws people off… a little chaos from Rudy here and there might go a long way.
 
NUMBERICA said:
I really fundamentally disagree with this notion that Gobert is playing the perimeter soft because he just doesn’t feel like defending. There is absolutely 0 back line defense, and everyone on the floor knows that. In late-clock situations he plays closer because he knows the odds of them getting to the cup are a lot lower. But if he plays tight on the perimeter, the chances of a layup/dunk from either a back-door cut or a blow-by is unacceptably high.

If we had some athleticism, effort, scheme, and even some basic personal pride in getting a stop from anyone then I think the approach changes.
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I don't think he's soft, but he's definitely trained to play one way and it gets in the way of him making better decisions. It's just the way Gobert has been playing for years, of course his instincts are going to be attracted to the paint and that's not necessarily his fault. Don lets guys walk past him, Rudy goes to the paint no matter what, Bogey is not going to rotate off his man down to the corner....All of these guys are capable of being better, but they're so used to playing this way because it's the only way they've played and it's worked really well for the most part. Pretty much every part except the playoffs. I definitely put a lot of this on Quin, but the players need to hold some responsibility for their own play. Mitchell has to stay in front better, Rudy has got to be smarter about how and when he helps., and Bogey has got to be better off the ball. I don't care what Quin is telling them in that huddle, they've got to be better on their own.
 
infection said:
Who's we? Go back and look, even when we were out 10 back I was saying our time to compete was now, we needed to trade our pick for tangible players, and that when Rudy returned we would be much better and be in playoff contention. It doesn't matter what people thought. The reality is that the "doom and gloom" was a result of people not recognizing how much of an effect Rudy would have. The whole "built around Rudy" idea is silly because the way we handled defense before and after summer of 2019 is drastically different. The failures of what you're seeing of "being built around Rudy" is a willful scheme Quin has implemented post-summer 2019 where he emphasized extreme funneling to Rudy, rather than letting guys play aggressive on the perimeter because of Rudy. If we had a competent coach and FO, we could get back to that pre-2019 strategy without sacrificing much. But the biggest problem is that most people think the defensive strategy has been continuous and that it's just been "exposed," when it's actually changed.
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Changed....and THEN exposed.
 
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