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Thoughts on Trading Bogdanvic

it is both. free throw is the easiest way to score points in basketball, period. Taking that away will result in less points scored in a basketball game. just look up the numbers. stats don't lie. highest scoring games are also the ones with the highest number of free throws. reducing free throws would help the gameflow, yes. but they don't just take away free throws without bearing in mind that points would also get reduced as a result.
They have not hidden why they made the changes. It is to speed up game play and remove BS from the game. Period. It had nothing to do with scoring… NOTHING! It’s why they changed the review rules. It comes down to the TV product and dollars . They ****ing love points.
 
They have not hidden why they made the changes. It is to speed up game play and remove BS from the game. Period. It had nothing to do with scoring… NOTHING! It’s why they changed the review rules. It comes down to the TV product and dollars . They ****ing love points.
maybe one day they will discover a new science on how to reduce free throws while keeping points scored in a game the same. but unfortunately as of 2021, that science doesn't exit. not everything is black and white out there. as much as they love points, they simply don't like those points scored from the free throw line. call it collateral damage if you will.
 
When I talk about the collapse I'm talking about the playoffs where we got grilled against a team without their best player, not the RS. What we did in the RS had zero meaning when it came to playing the Clippers. The Clippers aren't the only team that can exploit us and going small isn't the only way to do it. If you won the championship by winning the RS my thoughts would be different, but that is not how the NBA works. The Jazz have defensive weaknesses that can be covered by Gobert during the RS but it's impossible for Gobert or anyone to keep that in the playoffs when opposing teams can plan for it.

Bogey did not play in the DEN series and we were elite offensively that series. So no, the confidence I have in our offense did not change at all when he was out. Mitchell, Conley, Bogey, Clarkson, and Ingles are the 5 players that I would consider scorers and ball handlers. If one of them is out, the others would pick up for them. Since Clarkson was acquired the Jazz are 44-16 and have a 118 Ortg when one of those 5 are out. When all 5 are playing the Jazz are 34-20 and have a 116 Ortg. This is what gives me confidence in our ability to score if we were to move a scorer/ball handler.

The offense has carried through to the playoffs. We went through the DEN series without Bogey and the LAC without Conley. In both instances we had and Ortg that would have been first in the league. Unlike the defense, I don't think we have underlying weaknesses that can be exposed during the playoffs and that's proven to be true. Like I said before, it doesn't have to be Bogey. I have confidence in our offense to score without anyone besides Mitchell out. My thoughts aren't that we have to trade Bogey because he's bad or whatever. It's that we can afford to move some offense for some defense.
I appreciate the effort. Keep fighting the good fight!
 
The playoff offense with Bogey on the court was so much better than when he was off the floor. The biggest issue with the defense is the Clips could not miss and we had two guards that were on one leg.

The fact that we were able to score a ton against Denver the year before without Bogey is tough to rely on. Denver is a ****** defensive team. Especially that year… you need every weapon in the playoffs and Bogey is absolutely a weapon. He has also ramped up his defense multiple times. If you are trading bogey and not getting Hayward or Barnes (or someone in that tier of player) then you will likely be worse. RoCo and Gordon and those types have been far worse players than Bogey in the playoffs.
 
I did enjoy the criticism of rudy gay being a 35 years old backup PF as if that wont make much of a difference (and not taking into account the other additions the jazz made this past off season). Then I check pj tuckers age and he is 36 year old backup PF. Maybe rudy gay can be a difference maker even at the ancient age of 35. Worked out pretty good for tucker and the bucks i think.
 
The playoff offense with Bogey on the court was so much better than when he was off the floor. The biggest issue with the defense is the Clips could not miss and we had two guards that were on one leg.

The fact that we were able to score a ton against Denver the year before without Bogey is tough to rely on. Denver is a ****** defensive team. Especially that year… you need every weapon in the playoffs and Bogey is absolutely a weapon. He has also ramped up his defense multiple times. If you are trading bogey and not getting Hayward or Barnes (or someone in that tier of player) then you will likely be worse. RoCo and Gordon and those types have been far worse players than Bogey in the playoffs.
I mean a few years back when we had favors and gobert playing together jazz fans were almost universally crying for a stretch 4. Any stretch 4. I remember we wanted otto porter, jabari Parker, nikola mirotic, portis (I think thats his name), washed up overpriced no defense playing kevin love and many others. Now we have one that is better than those dudes and we want to get rid of him? weird.
 
What are you talking about?
He is basing our entire defensive performance last season on a few games against the clippers I think. Which, who knows if those two games against the clippers were even historically bad (I admittedly haven't done the research) but whatevs
 
He is basing our entire defensive performance last season on a few games against the clippers I think. Which, who knows if those two games against the clippers were even historically bad (I admittedly haven't done the research) but whatevs
I assumed that was the case. Pretty extreme cherry-picking of data to fit an objectively false narrative. Even so, if we’re going to fixate on that specific sample, then I’m not sure why we’re fixating on a dude who wasn’t the heart of the problem, worked hard on defense, and actually did a good job.

Glad we have people working overtime to make sure we can’t enjoy good things.
 
I assumed that was the case. Pretty extreme cherry-picking of data to fit an objectively false narrative. Even so, if we’re going to fixate on that specific sample, then I’m not sure why we’re fixating on a dude who wasn’t the heart of the problem, worked hard on defense, and actually did a good job.

Glad we have people working overtime to make sure we can’t enjoy good things.
Then you add in the fact that we got rid of worse defenders (niang, favors, etc) and brought in better defenders (paschall, gay, whiteside) and it becomes even more moot than it already was.
 
The playoff offense with Bogey on the court was so much better than when he was off the floor. The biggest issue with the defense is the Clips could not miss and we had two guards that were on one leg.

The fact that we were able to score a ton against Denver the year before without Bogey is tough to rely on. Denver is a ****** defensive team. Especially that year… you need every weapon in the playoffs and Bogey is absolutely a weapon. He has also ramped up his defense multiple times. If you are trading bogey and not getting Hayward or Barnes (or someone in that tier of player) then you will likely be worse. RoCo and Gordon and those types have been far worse players than Bogey in the playoffs.

Bogey's playoff minutes where almost entirely tethered to Mitchell's. And once again, I'm not trying to just pick on Bogey. I think we can be elite on offense if as long as we have Mitchell. We should move one of the scorers, doesn't have to be Bogey, for a defender. There's overwhelming evidence to suggest that we can still be elite without one of the main guys. Two full regular seasons and two playoff series. Bogey just seems like the most obvious scorer to trade if we were to do so.

I guess I'm just being a downer, but the Clippers series did happen and the DEN series before that. We've lost back to back years because we couldn't defend. If you guys want to pretend like that didn't happen or aren't concerned by it, to each their own. But the defense is definitely a concern for me and swapping the backups doesn't inspire much confidence. Scoring without Bogey/Clarkson on the roster? Not a concern at all for me. I think you are vastly underrating the rest of this roster if you concerned about scoring.
 
Then you add in the fact that we got rid of worse defenders (niang, favors, etc) and brought in better defenders (paschall, gay, whiteside) and it becomes even more moot than it already was.
And the Jazz are trying different schemes so far this year. And players are more engaged defensively on the perimeter.
 
I do find it funny that most here whined and complained that we didn't address perimeter defense after getting torched in the DEN series. Then we got torched again in the LAC series, but it's no longer ok to mention what happened and if you have concerns about it you're just a hater.
 
Bogey's playoff minutes where almost entirely tethered to Mitchell's. And once again, I'm not trying to just pick on Bogey. I think we can be elite on offense if as long as we have Mitchell. We should move one of the scorers, doesn't have to be Bogey, for a defender. There's overwhelming evidence to suggest that we can still be elite without one of the main guys. Two full regular seasons and two playoff series. Bogey just seems like the most obvious scorer to trade if we were to do so.

I guess I'm just being a downer, but the Clippers series did happen and the DEN series before that. We've lost back to back years because we couldn't defend. If you guys want to pretend like that didn't happen or aren't concerned by it, to each their own. But the defense is definitely a concern for me and swapping the backups doesn't inspire much confidence. Scoring without Bogey/Clarkson on the roster? Not a concern at all for me. I think you are vastly underrating the rest of this roster if you concerned about scoring.
The denver series did happen. We lost. Without bogey. Maybe if bogey never had surgery we would be NBA champions.
 
I do find it funny that most here whined and complained that we didn't address perimeter defense after getting torched in the DEN series. Then we got torched again in the LAC series, but it's no longer ok to mention what happened and if you have concerns about it you're just a hater.
Nah bro. Its just that we just had an off season that addressed our post season concerns. Lets see how it shakes out. I really like what the new ownership and GM etc have done. We are the only undefeated team right now. This could just be a good time to be happy with what we got.
 
The denver series did happen. We lost. Without bogey. Maybe if bogey never had surgery we would be NBA champions.

Maybe we'd be champions if Conley was never hurt and maybe we win this year if things go right. All possible. I think moving some scoring for defense would increase our chances and no it's not just being a hater. We were playing a man down in both the DEN and LAC series. Given that we played elite offense and still lost, I think adding a defender would be more meaningful than another scorer to the mix.

If you're concerned about scoring without Bogey? Agree to disagree. I personally don't see any concern based on how this team has performed in the last couple of years. Same goes with the new additions making a meaningful defensive impact. You can disagree about the extent to which those additions help. It's just so tiring to have your reasoning met with, "you're a hater". It would be very easy for me just dismiss everything against a trade as being a blind homer, but it's not really a productive conversation.
 
Given that we played elite offense and still lost, I think adding a defender would be more meaningful than another scorer to the mix.
Yep. Exactly why we dropped niang and added Gay (and paschall and whiteside). Happiness all around.
 
Maybe we'd be champions if Conley was never hurt and maybe we win this year if things go right. All possible. I think moving some scoring for defense would increase our chances and no it's not just being a hater. We were playing a man down in both the DEN and LAC series. Given that we played elite offense and still lost, I think adding a defender would be more meaningful than another scorer to the mix.

If you're concerned about scoring without Bogey? Agree to disagree. I personally don't see any concern based on how this team has performed in the last couple of years. Same goes with the new additions making a meaningful defensive impact. You can disagree about the extent to which those additions help. It's just so tiring to have your reasoning met with, "you're a hater". It would be very easy for me just dismiss everything against a trade as being a blind homer, but it's not really a productive conversation.
 
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