Walker Kessler Bench Appreciation Thread

[hgb]

Ok Fish, I will play along with your game.

One a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the worst perimeter defensive big (let's say Jokic) and 10 being the best perimeter defensive big (let's say prime Draymond) where do you think Walker lies? And what bigs do you think he is comparable to with perimeter defensive ability?

I'd go with 4 on this scale, which I think is acceptable for a 2nd year elite rim protector. He wasn't a 4 last year IMHO, so he's improving. And I'd probably put Rudy (Jazz Rudy, don't see him too much now) as a 7 or something.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

This was in the 4Q right? Rather that creating contact he went to his left for a terrible off-balance layup that didn't touch the rim. I wanted to pull my hair out. You either go strong for a dunk or just shoot your FTs, even at a 50% rate. Def needs to work a lot on this. Also his screens.

Think it was the first half but could be mistaken

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'd go with 4 on this scale, which I think is acceptable for a 2nd year elite rim protector. He wasn't a 4 last year IMHO, so he's improving. And I'd probably put Rudy (Jazz Rudy, don't see him too much now) as a 7 or something.

Yeah, by no means is Walkers perimeter D unacceptable. It's probably right where it should be at this point

But if the Jazz were in a playoff series most playoff teams would expose him with his current level. He needs to clean up a lot of things. Hardy does a great job of limiting how much exposure he has out there, but the playoffs would make it difficult to avoid

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I'd go with 4 on this scale, which I think is acceptable for a 2nd year elite rim protector. He wasn't a 4 last year IMHO, so he's improving. And I'd probably put Rudy (Jazz Rudy, don't see him too much now) as a 7 or something.

And yeah, Id say peak Rudy was a 7 and he's probably a 5 now, maybe a 6 if he's very motivated (he did some nasty closeout work on Chet in their first matchup)

 

[Peter_Mentor]

Yeah, by no means is Walkers perimeter D unacceptable. It's probably right where it should be at this point

But if the Jazz were in a playoff series most playoff teams would expose him with his current level. He needs to clean up a lot of things. Hardy does a great job of limiting how much exposure he has out there, but the playoffs would make it difficult to avoid

If the Jazz were in a playoff series, Walkers perimeter D wouldn't be the first thing that would be exposed.

On the other hand, play Walker with elite PoA defenders who actually know how to navigate screens, and suddenly Hardys job becomes a lot easier.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

If the Jazz were in a playoff series, Walkers perimeter D wouldn't be the first thing that would be exposed.

On the other hand, play Walker with elite PoA defenders who actually know how to navigate screens, and suddenly Hardys job becomes a lot easier.

I mean, sure.... I guess Sexton's D would be the first thing.

But it's still a thing that would happen. I really don't get why these conversations have this much deflection.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Finding elite POA defenders who are playable on offense, especially when your center provides negative offense, is extremely difficult so it's the oddest thing to deflect with

 

[Peter_Mentor]

Finding elite POA defenders who are playable on offense, especially when your center provides negative offense, is extremely difficult so it's the oddest thing to deflect with

Yet Rudy plays with McDaniels and Ant, Jokic with KCP, Brook had Jrue when they won..

I'm not saying that perimeter D isn't Walkers biggest weakness defensively. It's overemphasized because the Jazz doesn't have good enough PoA defenders. And yes, Dunn and Walker are not an optimal pairing on offense.

 

[fishonjazz]

Incorrect. I said you have to be able to defend more effectively inside whole the perimeter area if you want to be a fixture in the NBA All-Defense team or even a DPOY candidate (which is a thing people have been throwing around here).

That is just a fact. Obviously Kessler can't become a "good" perimeter defender, he's massive.

Effectively inside whole the perimeter area doesn't make sense to me. Not sure what you are saying there.

Sent from my OPD2203 using Tapatalk

 

[Tremendous Upside]

Effectively inside whole the perimeter area doesn't make sense to me. Not sure what you are saying there.

I would be fine with Kessler being an effective and willing defender all the way to the perimeter. Doesn't mean he should become a stopper of jitterbug ballhandlers. Just get out of the hole.

Right now he's even giving up easy floaters off short rolls because he doesn't want to risk getting burned if he closes out.

 

[fishonjazz]

I would be fine with Kessler being an effective and willing defender all the way to the perimeter. Doesn't mean he should become a stopper of jitterbug ballhandlers. Just get out of the hole.

Right now he's even giving up easy floaters off short rolls because he doesn't want to risk getting burned if he closes out.

Nah right now he is playing a lot of zone and being told to stay in the paint and defend it. Just doing what coach asks. The defense has been really good lately. You want him to roam more but that would get him put on the bench since its not what hardy wants and would hurt the defense of the team.
And again, as has been mentioned, he does close out (blocked 2 three pointers in the last two games) and he does leave his area and man to defend dudes who have beat other jazz defenders. When he does this the offensive player he goes to guard usually doesn't score........ but the offense does score because if he blocks or alters the shot then they just get an offensive rebound put back with kessler not being there to rebound. Or they pass off to a man in the space Kessler just vacated for an easy layup. The jazz defense as a whole is much better with Kessler in the paint. Even if kessler was the best roaming closeout perimeter defender in the entire league..... the defense the jazz run is better with him in the paint.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Nah right now he is playing a lot of zone and being told to stay in the paint and defend it. Just doing what coach asks. The defense has been really good lately. You want him to roam more but that would get him put on the bench since its not what hardy wants and would hurt the defense of the team.
And again, as has been mentioned, he does close out (blocked 2 three pointers in the last two games) and he does leave his area and man to defend dudes who have beat other jazz defenders. When he does this the offensive player he goes to guard usually doesn't score........ but the offense does score because if he blocks or alters the shot then they just get an offensive rebound put back with kessler not being there to rebound. Or they pass off to a man in the space Kessler just vacated for an easy layup. The jazz defense as a whole is much better with Kessler in the paint. Even if kessler was the best roaming closeout perimeter defender in the entire league..... the defense the jazz run is better with him in the paint.

Again, you are misinterpreting what TU is saying to create a strawman out of it.

 

[fishonjazz]

Again, you are misinterpreting what TU is saying to create a strawman out of it.

No im not. He is saying that Kessler doesn't cover the whole court well. So far I have seen no evidence of that being true and I have provided evidence of it being false. Also, Hardy doesn't want kessler to cover the whole court. He wants Kessler in the paint. Not covering the whole court. Thats not his job or role or what he is asked to do. Occasionally he has had to. And done a good job.
Once again you provided nothing. Just vague hating. Its your thing.

 

[fishonjazz]

The stats say that Kessler makes anyone within 6 feet of him shoot 16% worse on average ANYWHERE on the floor. No other player in the NBA, including Rudy, who according to Locke, just fell behind Kessler on this stat does this better. It makes me wonder about people who see it in the games, can see the stats that back up the eye test, and still want to lie to themselves about a player on the team they supposedly cheer for is somehow lacking. Especially when that player is making 3 million per and is nowhere near their prime.

Again, there is this stat in the post I quoted.
There are lots of stats. Someone post some stats showing how well dudes shoot outside the paint when walker is within 6 feet of them. Lets see if he defends poorly outside the paint. Show me the stats of these poor closeouts. Show me the stats that he gets cooked when defending the perimeter or in space.
Post a stat of how many shots he defends outside the paint if the issue is he defends outside the paint well but not often enough. Compare how often he defends outside the paint vs someone like rudy. Compare how often his peers play a box and 1 defense.
My mind can be changed. Just gotta show your work. Just saying stuff doesn't work. Especially when the stats say his defense is great and the teams defense is great when he is on the court.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No im not. He is saying that Kessler doesn't cover the whole court well. So far I have seen no evidence of that being true and I have provided evidence of it being false. Also, Hardy doesn't want kessler to cover the whole court. He wants Kessler in the paint. Not covering the whole court. Thats not his job or role or what he is asked to do. Occasionally he has had to. And done a good job.
Once again you provided nothing. Just vague hating. Its your thing.

I've provided what I've provided already. I'm not going to sit here and spell everything out for you. There's a ton of nuance to the perimeter defense that bigs like Walker need to play and you are ignoring all of it to act like TU is saying something he isnt.

There is simply no stats you can be shown to prove anything regarding the points TU/myself have brought up. It's something you have to see in clips. Footwork while closing out, the distance you are closing to contest certain shots, etc. It's extremely detailed and something the difference in inches and fractions of seconds.

Just stick to homerism post and what not. It's your thing.

 

[framer]

I've provided what I've provided already. I'm not going to sit here and spell everything out for you. There's a ton of nuance to the perimeter defense that bigs like Walker need to play and you are ignoring all of it to act like TU is saying something he isnt.

There is simply no stats you can be shown to prove anything regarding the points TU/myself have brought up. It's something you have to see in clips. Footwork while closing out, the distance you are closing to contest certain shots, etc. It's extremely detailed and something the difference in inches and fractions of seconds.

Just stick to homerism post and what not. It's your thing.

In other words, the CY "Look the Part" test, because it has been soooo acurate. JHS and Gradey Dick have been out there crushing it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

In other words, the CY "Look the Part" test, because it has been soooo acurate. JHS and Gradey Dick have been out there crushing it.

I mean, I'm one of the best at prospects and my accuracy outweighs or is on par with anyone.... (funny how you bring up the two I might be wrong on instead of Bilal or Jaquez where I was clearly right)

Some guys take more time than others.

But this is not like that at all. This isnt projecting one level of play to another.

It's just something that you have to breakdown in clips. It's not a stats thing.

 

[Elizah Huge]

I mean, I'm one of the best at prospects and my accuracy outweighs or is on par with anyone.... (funny how you bring up the two I might be wrong on instead of Bilal or Jaquez where I was clearly right)

Some guys take more time than others.

But this is not like that at all. This isnt projecting one level of play to another.

It's just something that you have to breakdown in clips. It's not a stats thing.

*whispers*

If you have to tell people you’re one of the best at something you really aren’t.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

*whispers*

If you have to tell people you’re one of the best at something you really aren’t.

I'm sure you have never corrected someone on this board if they misrepresented your draft thoughts or only displayed your (not even complete) L's.

If you're going to be so horny to dunk on me, at least maintain some integrity.

 

[framer]

Seriously though, Jazz fans are forever living in that Clippers series where Rudy kept getting cooked because Snyder would not or could not make adjustments. The problem that Quinn had, and that is showing up in Atlanta, is that his offensive and defensive schemes are way too complicated and inflexible. You practice the thing until it becomes well oiled and it shines like a penny. However, when you get an injury, or other teams adjust, there is no fallback plan. You can only go out and continue to grind the original plan. The Snyder Jazz got away with it because their offensive talent was soooo good it overcame a lot of ills and fit Quinn's scheme. Atlanta's squad apparently does not. It is also why the Jazz were so bad in the clutch. A team would throw a wrinkle, and if the practiced Jazz system could not overcome it, we lost. There was no plan B. The Jazz basically would try to put you away by the 3rd quarter. If they couldn't, it was an adventure from there.

Hardy does it different. You saw what happened when Toronto tried to small ball us. Jazz went big with Olynyk and Lauri and crushed them because we were too big to defend with their midgets. Jazz have lost games this season developing a zone. They aren't likely to go zone permanently, but it has become an effective tool for us that is now winning games. Hardy is playing a deep bench, probably too deep, because he is developing options instead of just a well-oiled system. Having an elite rim protector that can defend out to the perimeter (and he can defend out there, even though it is better if he doesn't) is a great option.

I can guarantee that Hardy has watched that Terance Mann- Rudy game several times, because he is making it a priority to never leave Kessler in that situation. For us to live in fear that Kessler will fail, because Rudy was allowed to fail in a certain situation makes no sense. That was a coaching failure, not a Rudy failure. Hardy's team isn't as good as Snyder's team because there is a tremendous talent difference. Hardy's team is better built though and is way more flexible and prepared for whatever is thrown against it. It is why they excel in the clutch.