Who is the Best Guard or Wing We can Get for Walker Kessler?

[RyGuy]

How important is Kesslers defense really? I mean Boston scored 155 points a couple games ago against Indiana. At what point does having a 5 out spaced floor have a higher advantage than having a traditional big who can get you 3 plus blocks a game? Maybe I'm underselling Walker Kessler's importance and defense I'm just not 100% sure how valuable he is in comparison to having a 5 out spread floor?

Obviously it's nots apples to apples comparison as Boston has really good 2 way wing players but still. I prefer the 5 out spaced floor

 

[Flc]

We need to see better guard play on both ends of the floor before anyone can properly evaluate Kessler’s second year. All we know now is he isn’t an offensive creator or Gobert-level defense-unto-himself.

 

[HermanG]

It doesn’t help when compared with what KO brings to that lineup versus Gay/Vando. It’s also made worse by having a guy like THT who is not a good shooter off the dribble and is not a guy that teams close hard too… in the place of Mike Conley and having this years JC compared to last year JC.

Collins might work better in that lineup with a true pg and some other competent shooters. The guard play is so damn horrible that it’s honestly hard to make any kind of evaluation.

Yeah except Collins is only playing 5.8 minutes more with Kessler than Gay used to last year, and KO has been the worst lineup pair with Kessler thus far.

The problem exists and the guards are the biggest reason based on stats and eyeball test, but Kesslers play is also part of it (based on stats and eyeball test).

However Collins isnt even a factor based on lineup data or eyeball test (or his shooting stats), but only by confirmation bias to the bad fit narrative.

 

[Flc]

And that’s better for us, by the way. We need a competent starter-level big (hopefully Kessler), Keyonte to be a fringe All-Star and then a top-10 wing/Doncic. Then collect and develop 3&D players.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

How important is Kesslers defense really? I mean Boston scored 155 points a couple games ago against Indiana. At what point does having a 5 out spaced floor have a higher advantage than having a traditional big who can get you 3 plus blocks a game? Maybe I'm underselling Walker Kessler's importance and defense I'm just not 100% sure how valuable he is in comparison to having a 5 out spread floor?

Obviously it's nots apples to apples comparison as Boston has really good 2 way wing players but still. I prefer the 5 out spaced floor

I mean if you can pair athletic wings with some of the best guard defenders in the league then you can live with guys like Zinger and what’s left of Horford at the 5… then yeah we don’t need Kessler.

Rim defense is still huge in the nba. lol if you can fin a good rebounding shooter then maybe 5 out is better. Of the options we have now Kessler is a great one.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah except Collins is only playing 5.8 minutes more with Kessler than Gay used to last year, and KO has been the worst lineup pair with Kessler thus far.

The problem exists and the guards are the biggest reason based on stats and eyeball test, but Kesslers play is also part of it (based on stats and eyeball test).

However Collins isnt even a factor based on lineup data or eyeball test (or his shooting stats), but only by confirmation bias to the bad fit narrative.

Can’t look at last years numbers for comparison and only this years numbers with KO as the sample is too small.

Kessler is struggling and some of that is on him for sure. But taking KO off the floor and replacing him with Collins exacerbates the issues. JC isn’t the shooter or passer KO is… add it to the bad guard play and it all adds up. Very limited lineup data isn’t going to tell me much right now. It just isn’t. We saw how good Kessler was last year with players that were better fits. It’s super easy to see that we have multiple play finishers in the starting lineup and not much creation. It’s not the only cause of Kesslers struggles but it’s also a contributing factor for sure.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Playing multiple iffy shooters with a non shooter is going to be complete *** if you add in our playmaking.

Kessler Lauri Collins isn’t a good fit… it’s not impossible but it’s not good. Stack our dribble happy brick chucking guards on it and it’s horrendous. Just look at the net rating of the starting lineup compared to when KO comes in. Kessler is a part of the problem but so is Collins.

They went out and bought ingredients with considering a recipe. Now we have french toast chicken soup.

 

[HermanG]

Playing multiple iffy shooters with a non shooter is going to be complete *** if you add in our playmaking.

Kessler Lauri Collins isn’t a good fit… it’s not impossible but it’s not good. Stack our dribble happy brick chucking guards on it and it’s horrendous. Just look at the net rating of the starting lineup compared to when KO comes in. Kessler is a part of the problem but so is Collins.

They went out and bought ingredients with considering a recipe. Now we have french toast chicken soup.

Dude... Gay was the best matchup with Kessler in 2 player lineups last year (+11.5 in 326 minutes) KO was the 2nd worst (+1.4 in 726 minutes). Only Sexton was worse.

Its a narrative that people push because it makes sense in their heads. Its not supported by any facts.

FWIW THT was the 2nd best pair last year, Lauri was 3rd. So top 3 fits is the same with this years sample except Gay is replaced by Collins who has dropped to 3rd.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Dude... Gay was the best matchup with Kessler in 2 player lineups last year (+11.5 in 326 minutes) KO was the 2nd worst (+1.4 in 726 minutes). Only Sexton was worse.

Its a narrative that people push because it makes sense in their heads. Its not supported by any facts.

FWIW THT was the 2nd best pair last year, Lauri was 3rd. So top 3 fits is the same with this years sample except Gay is replaced by Collins who has dropped to 3rd.

Dude… the Gay Walker minutes were all bench minutes which are very different. Look at the lineup data with KO/Kessler/Lauri from last year. Compare that to this year with Collins. What changed?

Literally just look at Collins/KO/Lauri this year with the starting guard lineup… Kessler/collins as starters with our bricks guards does not work. Spacing is an issue and the defense hasn’t been better.

Saying it’s a stupid narrative is stupid… it is the narrative. It’s a blame pie and it’s not Collins fault… he’s been better than Kessler this year… but they will hurt each others production. You can have one guy that can’t really shoot pass or dribble but if you stack on another iffy shooter who isn’t a creator on top of Lauri with his deficiencies in that area and add in Jc/THT… it doesn’t work. Will need to change something to have a winning formula but isolating two man pairings from limited lineup data doesn’t prove what you think you see.

 

[underdog]

Yeah except Collins is only playing 5.8 minutes more with Kessler than Gay used to last year, and KO has been the worst lineup pair with Kessler thus far.

The problem exists and the guards are the biggest reason based on stats and eyeball test, but Kesslers play is also part of it (based on stats and eyeball test).

However Collins isnt even a factor based on lineup data or eyeball test (or his shooting stats), but only by confirmation bias to the bad fit narrative.

The data we have so far is way too small to draw meaningful conclusions. Let's wait and see what we got.

 

[HermanG]

Dude… the Gay Walker minutes were all bench minutes which are very different. Look at the lineup data with KO/Kessler/Lauri from last year. Compare that to this year with Collins. What changed?

Literally just look at Collins/KO/Lauri this year with the starting guard lineup… Kessler/collins as starters with our bricks guards does not work. Spacing is an issue and the defense hasn’t been better.

Saying it’s a stupid narrative is stupid… it is the narrative. It’s a blame pie and it’s not Collins fault… he’s been better than Kessler this year… but they will hurt each others production. You can have one guy that can’t really shoot pass or dribble but if you stack on another iffy shooter who isn’t a creator on top of Lauri with his deficiencies in that area and add in Jc/THT… it doesn’t work. Will need to change something to have a winning formula but isolating two man pairings from limited lineup data doesn’t prove what you think you see.

Why is KO the 2nd worst pair with Kessler last year in 726 minutes?

 

[HermanG]

Dude… the Gay Walker minutes were all bench minutes which are very different. Look at the lineup data with KO/Kessler/Lauri from last year. Compare that to this year with Collins. What changed?

Literally just look at Collins/KO/Lauri this year with the starting guard lineup… Kessler/collins as starters with our bricks guards does not work. Spacing is an issue and the defense hasn’t been better.

Saying it’s a stupid narrative is stupid… it is the narrative. It’s a blame pie and it’s not Collins fault… he’s been better than Kessler this year… but they will hurt each others production. You can have one guy that can’t really shoot pass or dribble but if you stack on another iffy shooter who isn’t a creator on top of Lauri with his deficiencies in that area and add in Jc/THT… it doesn’t work. Will need to change something to have a winning formula but isolating two man pairings from limited lineup data doesn’t prove what you think you see.

Oh and I do apologize. The narrative isnt stupid, nor are the people pushing it. Not what I meant to say but it maybe came out that way.

Its just not the root cause here, or even the 2nd most important factor.

I think Walker struggling is just much more of a guard problem and a Walker problem. Dont know which order. The numbers are just bad (both offense and defense) regardless of the lineup.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Oh and I do apologize. The narrative isnt stupid, nor are the people pushing it. Not what I meant to say but it maybe came out that way.

Its just not the root cause here, or even the 2nd most important factor.

I think Walker struggling is just much more of a guard problem and a Walker problem. Dont know which order. The numbers are just bad (both offense and defense) regardless of the lineup.

The question is do you really want a center is entirely reliant on others while also not having a huge defensive impact?

This isn't 2019 Gobert.

 

[FrenchJazzFa]

It's too early to say where Kessler go. I do think he can be a Rudy type. Poor offensive player but great in defense and rebounding. Let him play a whole season ( and hopefully with better passing guy) and we see.
Yesterday, almost all buckets Rudy make came from differents players ( Mike, Ant, KAT and Slomo). Ant and KAT are not the perfect playmakers ( lot of TO for both) but they work this summer and start to get some chemistry with Rudy. No reason we cannot do the same.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's too early to say where Kessler go. I do think he can be a Rudy type. Poor offensive player but great in defense and rebounding. Let him play a whole season ( and hopefully with better passing guy) and we see.
Yesterday, almost all buckets Rudy make came from differents players ( Mike, Ant, KAT and Slomo). Ant and KAT are not the perfect playmakers ( lot of TO for both) but they work this summer and start to get some chemistry with Rudy. No reason we cannot do the same.

Great rebounders typically can outrebound their teammates. He's only averaging 0.4 more rebounds than Lauri or Collins on a per minute basis,.

 

[LogGrad98]

Great rebounders typically can outrebound their teammates. He's only averaging 0.4 more rebounds than Lauri or Collins on a per minute basis,.

That's a bad measure and you know it. It varies greatly depending on role, individual rebounding ability, time on floor with different people, minutes per game, matchups, and more.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

That's a bad measure and you know it. It varies greatly depending on role, individual rebounding ability, time on floor with different people, minutes per game, matchups, and more.

I really dont think it is. Rebounding is a very "alpha" (I hate that term, but it does apply) thing. If you are an elite rebounder, you get the rebounds. There is a lot of competition in the starting lineup for rebounds, but Walker isnt stepping up. It's not a huge issue, but I think his lack of assertiveness is showing itself in all facets of his game. He's too nice.

 

[LogGrad98]

I really dont think it is. Rebounding is a very "alpha" (I hate that term, but it does apply) thing. If you are an elite rebounder, you get the rebounds. There is a lot of competition in the starting lineup for rebounds, but Walker isnt stepping up. It's not a huge issue, but I think his lack of assertiveness is showing itself in all facets of his game. He's too nice.

So you have 3 guys capable of averaging 10 rpg. They don't play all their minutes together. Which one stops rebounding while he's on the court to the other 2 can get theirs? One of these guys is primarily a perimeter player, one plays primarily under the basket. When they are on the court together, who plays where and who is more likely to get the rebound, the guy closer to the rim or the guy further away? It's a **** measure and you know it. You're just trying to make **** up to support your position, as per usual.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So you have 3 guys capable of averaging 10 rpg. They don't play all their minutes together. Which one stops rebounding while he's on the court to the other 2 can get theirs? One of these guys is primarily a perimeter player, one plays primarily under the basket. When they are on the court together, who plays where and who is more likely to get the rebound, the guy closer to the rim or the guy further away? It's a **** measure and you know it. You're just trying to make **** up to support your position, as per usual.

I'm not making anything up. Elite rebounders go and get it. Walker is a nice rebounder, he isn't elite.

And would you disagree that Walker hasnt been soft this year? He's needs a fire, and part of that fire is by going after every rebound 100%. That's what the elite rebounders do. They arent conceding rebounds to their teammates because their mindset is 100% on.

 

[LogGrad98]

I'm not making anything up. Elite rebounders go and get it. Walker is a nice rebounder, he isn't elite.

And would you disagree that Walker hasnt been soft this year? He's needs a fire, and part of that fire is by going after every rebound 100%. That's what the elite rebounders do. They arent conceding rebounds to their teammates because their mindset is 100% on.

Let's see, 5 games into his 2nd season with a new team mate that plays in essentially the same space. Not sure what you expected but he seems to be about where I'd expect, you know, inconsistent and learning. What did you expect, prime Shaq?

Sounds like more of a you problem than a Kessler problem, tbpfhwy.