CONAN
Well-Known Member
Took you long enough but glad you are in the fold now.
Wow. Cougar fans aren't going to like this......
- Thread starter 7StraightIsGreat
- Start date
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
BYU is ranked ahead of 7 of the 12 Pac 10 schools(Standford/CAL/UCLA/USC/Washington are the 5 higher) in all of the rankings I've seen. They don't have a med school, tis true. But seriously, what the **** does that have to do with athletic conferences? I don't put any weight into the academic part of it. I'm pretty sure academically all of those schools are competing against every school in the country instead of their little football bong circle conferences.
There are a couple of schools that have a problem with Mormons in the Pac 12. That's it. That's the whole BYU and Pac 12 story.
There are a couple of schools that have a problem with Mormons in the Pac 12. That's it. That's the whole BYU and Pac 12 story.
IMO, that played a WAY BIGGER role than the PAC is willing to admit. They'll never admit it was the major reason, but it was. The other reasons were just a nice excuse. Religious discrimination FTW!
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Seeing that BYU is owned and ran by the LDS church, the Pac 10 would have to be comfortable being partners with the church. Obviously they're not, and I don't see that as a clear-cut case of discrimination. However, I'm sure many of you will disagree.
The LDS church has chosen to put itself out there in regards to some very polarizing issues such as the whole Prop 8 mess. By choosing to invite BYU, the Pac 10 would have put itself in the crosshairs of several social and political debates. Why put your conference through that? Escpecially when the majority of your schools have a strong liberal base that conflicts directly with what BYU is all about.
Some BYU fans already get it, but I'm waiting for the majority of them to wake up and realize that BYU is BYU because of they're strong religious affiliation and a belief system that they're not willing to change/manipulate just in order to appease a bigger conference.
The Pac 10 was well aware of all of this and was smart enough to know that it was never going to be a good fit. Some call it discrimination, I just call it good business sense.
perhaps it was BYU that rebuffed a possible invite because they didn't want to agree to conditions mandated by the Pac 10?
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
this was discussed earlier: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php/112-Utah-to-the-Pac-10-MWC-to-get-BCS-game/page2
there are links with all kinds of "filters" to determine what schools fall into what categories, I'm not sure where the particular schools you mentioned would fall
just for you Conan, I'll repeat myself - - using this link: https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/lookup_listings/institution.php
here is how some schools are categorized
see the difference?
for an explanation of some of these terms, use this link:
https://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/descriptions/grad_program.php
(the bottom line is that STEM is a more limited range of PhD programs...)
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Archie Moses
Well-Known Member
perhaps it was BYU that rebuffed a possible invite because they didn't want to agree to conditions mandated by the Pac 10?
if that possibility has been discussed already, I apologize - I didn't see it.
also, I think some of you are overestimating the idea that BYU has this huge "national following" - - yeah, there are LDS folks across the US, and many of them are going to be BYU fans, but many of them will also be fans of whatever school is in their region or state, or whatever school they personally attended, and at any rate, I think it's probably a pretty small percentage of the population in most other parts of the country other than Utah and a few other areas.
Here's a pie chart showing % of religious affiliation for the midwest:
Mormon is 0.4 % - that's a pretty trivial number compared to the other religions listed.
https://www.religionatlas.org/religion_region/MIDWEST.htm
This is going to sound dumb, but I kid you not. I have multiple friends out of state from multiple different states and they as well as their friends like BYU. Every time I ask them why, they always respond to saying something like they like "watching all those white dudes." With that being said, BYU would get a tons of out of state fans to go to every PAC 10 game. There are tons of members in all of the cities that have Universities that I know of, except for WA St, cause I've only been to Spokane.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
Moe, the US population of Mormons is ~2% of the total population and most of those are in the Far West. I think most that bring up "national fanbase" are doing so in the context of comparison to Utah and a lot of the Pac 12 schools, which they would probably compare very favorably to. But you're right, there is so much variability within groups of populations that it's extremely hard to get a hard number on anything, let alone whom their favorite college football team might be.
But obviously you could apply that anywhere. How many Hispanics have any interest in American football, let alone college football? How many of the population at large? How many in the state of New York? How many people in Los Angeles really give a crap about USC football? Their attendance over the years would tell you conflicting stories. How many people in the Air Force follow Air Force football throughout their life? How many people watch Air Force because they enjoy rooting for the academies? How many college football fans will watch any game that's on T.V. just because it's football? They need a section for fanbases on the census or something.
I think the point is simply that BYU brings enough heads to the table, not that they are Notre Dame.
The problem with BYU is that there are only 2 BCS conferences that BYU could realistically be a part of due to geographical isolation and one of them has no interest in even considering the possibility.
But obviously you could apply that anywhere. How many Hispanics have any interest in American football, let alone college football? How many of the population at large? How many in the state of New York? How many people in Los Angeles really give a crap about USC football? Their attendance over the years would tell you conflicting stories. How many people in the Air Force follow Air Force football throughout their life? How many people watch Air Force because they enjoy rooting for the academies? How many college football fans will watch any game that's on T.V. just because it's football? They need a section for fanbases on the census or something.
I think the point is simply that BYU brings enough heads to the table, not that they are Notre Dame.
The problem with BYU is that there are only 2 BCS conferences that BYU could realistically be a part of due to geographical isolation and one of them has no interest in even considering the possibility.
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my youngest graduated HS in 2008, from a large Chicago suburban school. Of his class, 2 students are attending U of Utah, at least 3 are at Oregon, 2 at Washington, a dozen or so at various California Pac-10 schools, and another 1/2 dozen at either Arizona or ASU. There is nobody at BYU as far as I know, though I believe one or two had considered it - one of whom I know is not Mormon. At any rate, as far as non-Mormons go, given the general tendencies of the college-age population, I think the honor code would be a major impediment to student interest in attending BYU.
I agree with whoever it was who said they wouldn't necessarily call it religious discrimination keeping BYU out of the Pac-10, just reality. And, as noted in the links above, the FACT that it does not match the same criteria for level of research and doctoral programs as the others schools in the Pac 10 (and Big 10) might also be a factor. If the PAC 10 markets itself as a conference of a certain type of schools, then the schools in the conference should match those criteria.
One final thing, I never really thought of BYU as a Mormon school at all until I started reading this message board. If it puts out a good product (sports-wise) people will watch it as much as they'd watch any other school that they didn't have some personal connection too. Those posters who say the sports-viewing public would not watch BYU because it is a Mormon school are being ridiculous.
by the way, for those who didn't look into the link I posted, in the description of graduate programs, STEM refers to Science, Technology, Engineering & Mathematics. That means that advanced studies in disciplines such as Philosophy, Fine Arts, Business & Commerce, Journalism, and the Social Sciences are either not offered at all, or offered in rather insignificant numbers.
SaltyDawg
Well-Known Member
Look at it like this, if the SLC area is 40 minutes away fromt he BYU campus, and not even all the mormons in the SLC area are BYU fans, why on earth would anyone expect all the mormons hundreds, or even thousands of miles away to be BYU fans?
I'd also point out that the PAC 10 schools have no trouble selling football tickets. They don;t care if there are a couple hundred BYU fans that would buy tickets to their games. They are looking for more tv markets. Adding a couple hundred tv viewers in a city of 1 million + people is not significant enough to worry about.
Then you get into the academics where BYU isn't a major research institution, and isn't a memor of the AAU.
It just wasn't worth it for the PAC 10 to consider adding BYU. And as long as they won't play on Sundays, it probably won't be worth it for the Big 12 either.
Chad Feldheimer
Well-Known Member
It all boils down to the student athlete or in college football terms MONEY!
BYU doesn't offer enough big money to the PAC12 so they passed. Seriously. They could have justified all the other reasons if they money was there.
BYU can't play on Sunday... Oh noes?! We'll have to move it to Saturday.. Big deal
BYU are Mormons... So what Baylor has survived in the Big 12 with no problems. Every conference wants Notre Dame and they are a religious school. BYU has had zero problems in the MWC because being Mormon. Not a problem unless you go out of your way to make it a problem.
BYU is not a research institute. blah blah blah. If they were a big money maker they would justify that too.
Moral of the story: Money talks.
BYU doesn't offer enough big money to the PAC12 so they passed. Seriously. They could have justified all the other reasons if they money was there.
BYU can't play on Sunday... Oh noes?! We'll have to move it to Saturday.. Big deal
BYU are Mormons... So what Baylor has survived in the Big 12 with no problems. Every conference wants Notre Dame and they are a religious school. BYU has had zero problems in the MWC because being Mormon. Not a problem unless you go out of your way to make it a problem.
BYU is not a research institute. blah blah blah. If they were a big money maker they would justify that too.
Moral of the story: Money talks.
Duck Rodgers
Well-Known Member
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. As a person that has been to more USC games than BYU games over the last decade, I will say that The Pac 10 and Utah share some things in common. When they announce their attendance at stadiums as being sold out and you're sitting there in the ****ing crowd and half the building is empty, it makes you laugh like nothing you have ever experienced.
Salty, you guys are getting an upgraded paycheck. I don't what to hear anything else about your move to the Pac 10. USC runs that conference. Period. Everybody else is riding coattails, now including Utah.
What percentage of BYU students are from Salt Lake? What percentage are from Utah? I don't know the statistics, but anecdotally I would guess that probably only 40% of BYU students are even from Utah. If most of the BYU graduates are not from Utah, then it seems logical to suppose that BYU might have a lot of fans outside the state. (Whether or not that's important from the networks' standpoint, I don't know.)
According to the schools' websites, the percentage of students coming from within the state is:
BYU: 32%
UofU: 85%
I went to graduate school in engineering at a PAC-10 school. I assure you, ASU, OSU, and WSU are all more respected research institutions than BYU. Much more.
BYU is well respected in undergraduate education, accounting, and law, but none of those areas do much research. Sorry.
I have tabulated the rankings in several categories (according to US News). BYU does not fare too favorably compared to the current and future PAC-10 schools:
Engineering Graduate School Rankings:
2. Stanford
3. California
10. USC
15. UCLA
28. Washington
39. Colorado
44. Arizona State
51. Arizona
63. Utah
76. Washington
85. Oregon State
102. BYU
no program: Oregon.
Biological Sciences Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
2. California
15. Washington
24. UCLA
30. Colorado
34. Arizona
46. USC
56. Arizona State
56. Oregon
56. Utah
71. Oregon State
100. Washington State
144. BYU
Physics Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
5. California
19. Colorado
19. UCLA
19. Washington
36. Arizona
48. Arizona State
52. USC
57. Oregon
63. Utah
77. Oregon State
77. Washington State
102. BYU
Chemistry Graduate School Rankings:
1. California
4. Stanford
16. UCLA
26. Colorado
26. Washington
36. Utah
38. Arizona
53. Oregon
53. USC
60. Arizona State
74. Oregon State
78. Washington State
107. BYU
Computer Science Graduate School Rankings:
1. California
1. Stanford
7. Washington
14. UCLA
20. USC
39. Colorado
39. Utah
47. Arizona
53. Arizona State
63. Oregon
63. Oregon State
79. Washington State
91. BYU
Economics Graduate School Rankings:
5. Stanford
6. California
14. UCLA
34. Washington
39. Arizona
39. Arizona State
50. Colorado
50. USC
no rank: Oregon
no rank: Oregon State
no rank: Utah
no rank: Washington State
no program: BYU
Political Science Graduate School Rankings:
1. Stanford
6. California
11. UCLA
26. Washington
39. Colorado
46. Arizona
51. Arizona State
no rank: Oregon
no rank: USC
no rank: Utah
no rank: Washington State
no program: BYU
no program: Oregon State
Undergraduate Rankings:
4. Stanford
21. California
24. UCLA
26. USC
42. Washington
71. Brigham Young
77. Colorado
102. Arizona
106. Washington State
115. Oregon
121. Arizona State
126. Utah
Tier 3. Oregon State
You may think that academics played no part in this decision if you wish, but the fact of the matter is when comparing the 13 schools above, BYU comes in a distant 13th as a research institution.
SaltyDawg
Well-Known Member
I've been to my share of USC games too. I think the stadium being in a neighborhood where you don't walk around by yourself after dark might play a part in that. It doesn't matter though, the fact of the matter is they are selling out their games, and aren't looking for ways to sell more tickets. And even if they were concerned about people buying tickets and not showing up, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that adding BYU would equate to more people that buy tickets actually showing up to the games.
And USC may run the conference now, but they certainly didn't rule the conference 10 years ago. And with the penalties the NCAA just slapped down on them, they likely won't rule the conference in 2 years either.
I don't see how the percentage of people from Salt Lake matters. If the argument is, "2% of the nation are LDS, therefore BYU has a huge national fanbase..." and I point out that "Plenty of the LDS people within 40 minutes of the BYU campus flat out hate BYU, so I don't see why the LDS people 1000 miles away should automatically be considered fans..." Then why does it matter the percentage of BYU students from Utah?
What are the percentage of residents that live in PAC 12 areas (excluding Utah, since your post seems to be saying the Utah residents aren't that important or something) that went to BYU? I'm guessing that number is going to be so low that it is not significant. So the argument has to be that LDS people in general will root for BYU, and not only BYU grads, otherwise it makes no sense to even bring it up. And as I pointed out, there are plenty of LDS people in the SLC area, 40 minutes away from the BYU campus, that flat out hate BYU. So it would be foolish to assume most LDS people hundreds or even thousands of miles away are automatically BYU fans just because they are LDS.
If the argument is that BYU grads will generally be BYU fans, then I absolutely agree. But if that is the argument, then what does "2% of the nation is LDS..." have to do with it?
CONAN
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Moe.
CONAN
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's discrimination at all for the Pac-10 not to have BYU in the fold. If they brought in BYU they'd have lawsuits galore when non-Mormon Pac-10 kids had to pay more to go to BYU. I'm not familiar with Pac-10 constitution but I'm sure there's something in there about discriminatory tuition with regards to religion.
I'm fine with BYU not being in the Pac-10. Not a big deal really. But call it whatever you want whether that be a business decision or bigotry or whatever but the bottom line is academics has very little to do with BYU not being there. We all know it's about religion whether you haters want to admit to it or not. In fact, if BYU wasn't a Mormon school I doubt a lot of you haters would even exist.
Now go hug your third place trophy.
I'm fine with BYU not being in the Pac-10. Not a big deal really. But call it whatever you want whether that be a business decision or bigotry or whatever but the bottom line is academics has very little to do with BYU not being there. We all know it's about religion whether you haters want to admit to it or not. In fact, if BYU wasn't a Mormon school I doubt a lot of you haters would even exist.
Now go hug your third place trophy.
just for the sake of comparison...
so they have a separate tuition tier based on religious affiliation? well geez yeah, that would seem to be a big disqualifier.