Destruction of a Nation 101

[babe]

Life is good.

Can't believe any of you know much. got yer heads where the sun don't shine in JFC.

Mark Levin is getting more influential. Hannity has the top spot in audience. Rush is still doing the Charles Winchester III version of actual thinking for whoever still listens. A lot of new talk shows are gaining local markets, competing for the big time. Wilkow is now on CRTV. Newsmax has more audience than CBS. Nobody listens to you people with the old establishment propaganda.


I differ with Levin on tariffs. I don't understand why liberals and conservatives can chase their own tails logically by circuitous rhetoric. A tariff is a tax imposed on foreign production, paid by Americans who buy the stuff. Taxes imposed on citizens and on domestic productions are paid here to our government by Americans who buy the stuff. Taxes are always paid by people.... well, me at least. Sales taxes are taxes imposed on people who buy stuff too.

Government income finances government power, government perogatives, government programs of every kind, including foreign aid and world policing for whoever has the most money to buy "elected representatives".

Our national founders understood that stupid/insane King Geore III was a bumbling fool controlled by influential.... rich... merchants like the British trading companies who wanted to shut down American shippers who were willing to do business where ever opportunities existed. the answer.... British imposition of special taxes on Americans. The loot went to London. So when they created our Federal government, they considered the simplest possible tax that would keep the Brit merchants offshore. Tariffs.

yah we pay the price, but only if we buy their stuff.

Dems got no consistent ideas. No principles. Used to be unions liked tariffs and dems voted for them.

Now, since the Rockefellers took over the Dems with the ClintonCashMachine, nothing at all matters except ya gotta run off the upstart President the people voted for. You're not even "democratic" anymore.

I practically live in California. I think California must be a state owned by dead/illegal "voters". I bet the dems get more dem votes in San Diego, San Jose/Oakland/San Francisco, and Los Angeles than there are people counted in the census. 3/5 of the people I talk to are Republicans like Devin Nunez who are set to turn the state upside down and back to common sense.

Andrew Wilkow has a great idea. He says the tyranny of the majority.... well the tyranny of the ballot box stuffers.... is as bad an any other kind of tyranny. If we let the fake voters run our country, we're just stupid. All over this country, where ever people know their neighbors, real voters are rejecting the "way things are". It's a new era in politics. Nobody buys the old order.

Most people get it that our media, our "Hollywood", our Rockefeller clubsters, our hijacked educators who are nothing more than stupid cheerleaders for fascism.....are all crazed loons muttering insults like "conspiracy theorist" at normal folks who take care of themselves pretty good, thank you, and are absolutely fed up with all the nonsense rhetoric.......

JFC is perhaps a neat little echo chamber for the last holdouts for fascism.

So here's a challenge for you. Andrew Wilkow says that "liberals" are defined today by the set of folks who believe their personal opinions should be the law for everyone. That's what makes it a moral crusade to dump Trump. That's why the government employees who are the "vast bureaucratic horde or church ladies" of our State Liberal Religion, who must have their way over the world, just cannot and will not recognize the fact that Americans voted for Trump.

So just give it a whirl. Listen to people and try to understand what they are telling you. See if the world really falls apart if you don't get your way.

Liberals can't stand freedom. Gotta do something to make things go the "right way". A century plus of twisting words to a fake reality has got "Liberals" paralyzed, intellectually speaking. Deer in the headlights of change. That's why Google, Yahoo, and others of the set of "net Robber Baron" are tweaking the reality of the web to fit the liberal narrative.

But people don't buy that load anymore. If it weren't for our modern opium den project.... like the Brits once by force imposed on China..... burning out so many people on drugs, the dems could not win an election in San Francisco.

get out and take a look at the sun today. dump the drugs in an incinerator. drugs fry yer brains, folks. The world is what it has always been. All your fantasies about making it better are delusional.

Life is good.

 

[franklin]

This thread is top to bottom nothing more than failed attempts at some bull **** Ricardian reductionism. Y'all don't know what the hell you're talking about.

 

[franklin]

None of those are Democratic ideals. Ignoring due process... you think ANY serious political ideologues want to do away with due process?

He was referring to the contemporary democratic party takes, not "Democratic ideals". And yes, this is a typical example of "they were for it before they were against it". Both parties do this ****. Democrats have been pushing for a trade war for the last 2 decades. Now they don't want one and are playing the voice of reason card (thankfully).

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

He was referring to the contemporary democratic party takes, not "Democratic ideals". And yes, this is a typical example of "they were for it before they were against it". Both parties do this ****. Democrats have been pushing for a trade war for the last 2 decades. Now they don't want one and are playing the voice of reason card (thankfully).

Remember when the Dems waned Comey fired? That changed 100% on the day he was fired. And remember when Republicans used to say morality matters. Most of them conveniently overlooked that the moment they realized Trump would be the nominee. In general, people are a whole lot less principled than they believe that they are. And they are a whole lot more tribal than they believe they are.

 

[babe]

Humans are not consistent. Don't ever expect them to be. Principles are not practical realities. "Truth" as we imagine it has gotta be tweaked to fit any perceived situation. Imagination is not the real physical/material/objective universe. All our ideas are imperfect nets cast out to catch a moment in time.

That is why ideological or altruistic "causes" are a waste of time.

People with a desire to take advantage of circumstances will take advantage of any government we can imagine let alone actually create, for personal advantage or power. These are the "bad" people if you think humans should have intrinsic rights or equality in any sense.

The problem is, we let the perps run our schools, make our movies, own our churches, and buy our "representatives". And we believe it because we love it that way, and we defend our little cash cow connections just like the ClintonCashMachine.

I guess that's why we have the governments we have in this world.....

 

[fishonjazz]

Remember when the Dems waned Comey fired? That changed 100% on the day he was fired. And remember when Republicans used to say morality matters. Most of them conveniently overlooked that the moment they realized Trump would be the nominee. In general, people are a whole lot less principled than they believe that they are. And they are a whole lot more tribal than they believe they are.

Why don’t we just stop being republicans and democrats?
That’s how I roll. Then I don’t have to dislike something or someone because of some structured label and little box I have to be in. I can just make decisions for myself instead. It’s weird that there are so many people in this country who would prefer to be in the box following these stupid rules/guidelines rather than just be free to think what they want.

 

[franklin]

Remember when the Dems waned Comey fired? That changed 100% on the day he was fired. And remember when Republicans used to say morality matters. Most of them conveniently overlooked that the moment they realized Trump would be the nominee. In general, people are a whole lot less principled than they believe that they are. And they are a whole lot more tribal than they believe they are.

I remember when the GOP was for paying down the national debt and shrinking government, and when democrats were for the opposite, but it is always the dems who pay down debt and shrink the gov't work force and republicans who always expand both. Politics is always opposite day.

Why don’t we just stop being republicans and democrats?
That’s how I roll. Then I don’t have to dislike something or someone because of some structured label and little box I have to be in. I can just make decisions for myself instead. It’s weird that there are so many people in this country who would prefer to be in the box following these stupid rules/guidelines rather than just be free to think what they want.

I hear plenty people claim they are not R or D and are independent, but they're full of b.s. and at the end of the day the only real independents I've encountered are on Jazzfanz.

 

[Harambe]

I remember when the GOP was for paying down the national debt and shrinking government, and when democrats were for the opposite, but it is always the dems who pay down debt and shrink the gov't work force and republicans who always expand both. Politics is always opposite day.

I don't remember that.

I hear plenty people claim they are not R or D and are independent, but they're full of b.s. and at the end of the day the only real independents I've encountered are on Jazzfanz.

I'm certain you're full of **** at least 70% of the time. So this is pretty consistent.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Why don’t we just stop being republicans and democrats?
That’s how I roll. Then I don’t have to dislike something or someone because of some structured label and little box I have to be in. I can just make decisions for myself instead. It’s weird that there are so many people in this country who would prefer to be in the box following these stupid rules/guidelines rather than just be free to think what they want.

Because we are innately tribal. It's in our DNA. It's easy for someone who is not particularly politically active to remain distanced from both parties, or to pick and choose what they like, but if you were to decide you wanted to become involved politically and make a difference you would soon discover that way to accomplish that is to pick the party that you're most aligned with. And in order to earn support for your projects you would probably need to start showing support for the projects that your colleagues want. You would start going to the parties that your colleagues throw, laughing at the jokes that your colleagues tell, etc. If Democrat and Republican parties were abolished I doubt it would be very long before new parties arose to take their place.

 

[Siro]

It happened! The possible collapse of the global economy should be entertaining.

 

[franklin]

It happened! The possible collapse of the global economy should be entertaining.

Did the world collapse after The Plaza Accords? Countries can't run trade surpluses or deficits indefinitely. Trump tackling this has been 20 years in the making and there's no easy solution to our thirst for cheap import goods with a current account balance that is largely deficit financed. Prices need to go up here and down elsewhere to bring the system back into balance. How do you propose doing that and taking the rest of the world of off their US consumption morphine addiction?

On a positive note, America producing more of our own steel will most likely lower global emissions. It takes something like 3 days for Beijing's NOx to get to America.

 

[fishonjazz]

Because we are innately tribal. It's in our DNA. It's easy for someone who is not particularly politically active to remain distanced from both parties, or to pick and choose what they like, but if you were to decide you wanted to become involved politically and make a difference you would soon discover that way to accomplish that is to pick the party that you're most aligned with. And in order to earn support for your projects you would probably need to start showing support for the projects that your colleagues want. You would start going to the parties that your colleagues throw, laughing at the jokes that your colleagues tell, etc. If Democrat and Republican parties were abolished I doubt it would be very long before new parties arose to take their place.

Good answer.

 

[Siro]

Did the world collapse after The Plaza Accords? Countries can't run trade surpluses or deficits indefinitely. Trump tackling this has been 20 years in the making and there's no easy solution to our thirst for cheap import goods with a current account balance that is largely deficit financed. Prices need to go up here and down elsewhere to bring the system back into balance. How do you propose doing that and taking the rest of the world of off their US consumption morphine addiction?

On a positive note, America producing more of our own steel will most likely lower global emissions. It takes something like 3 days for Beijing's NOx to get to America.

How will steel tariffs help with the trade deficit? Once other countries retaliate, our exports will suffer, worsening the deficit. I don't understand the problem with cheap goods, or how a stiff increase on the cost of one of the most important commodities helps anyone or balances anything.

But you're right about the 20 year thing. Trump have been arguing for tariffs since the 80s. Except it was the Japanese who were laughing at us behind our backs, and who needed to be punished.

 

[♪alt13]

Did the world collapse after The Plaza Accords? Countries can't run trade surpluses or deficits indefinitely. Trump tackling this has been 20 years in the making and there's no easy solution to our thirst for cheap import goods with a current account balance that is largely deficit financed. Prices need to go up here and down elsewhere to bring the system back into balance. How do you propose doing that and taking the rest of the world of off their US consumption morphine addiction?

On a positive note, America producing more of our own steel will most likely lower global emissions. It takes something like 3 days for Beijing's NOx to get to America.

Lol

That's not how it works.

1) More expensive steel hurts American exporters of cars and machinery and stuff. It doesn't just put them at a disadvantage on the world market it will put them at a disadvantage on the domestic Market.
2) more expensive Steel means less Steel. Even if we blocked all foreign Steel Imports American Steel manufacturers would only replace a portion of those Imports. The rest would be lost to a decrease in demand.
3) importing a bunch of cheap basic materials and turning them into higher value products reduces the trade deficit. The trade deficit will get much higher if American manufacturers are forced to compete with companies like Toyota and Airbus who have cheaper material costs.
4)You are clearly a hack

 

[♪alt13]

The only good thing about this is that it looks like Trump has not backed down politically but has backed up big time in the details. Canada and Mexico are exempt and it looks like many other countries will be as well. Hopefully the damage will be minimized by taking the teeth out of these tariffs.

 

[franklin]

Lol

That's not how it works.

1) More expensive steel hurts American exporters of cars and machinery and stuff. It doesn't just put them at a disadvantage on the world market it will put them at a disadvantage on the domestic Market.
2) more expensive Steel means less Steel. Even if we blocked all foreign Steel Imports American Steel manufacturers would only replace a portion of those Imports. The rest would be lost to a decrease in demand.
3) importing a bunch of cheap basic materials and turning them into higher value products reduces the trade deficit. The trade deficit will get much higher if American manufacturers are forced to compete with companies like Toyota and Airbus who have cheaper material costs.
4)You are clearly a hack

Bitch please. You contrdict yourself with #3. Do you know how much raw iron ore we produce compared to Australia? Fortesque alone, a recent startup, already mines 4 times in the Pilbara the amount we do.

We don't have enough supply to meet our demands. Nucor is our largest manufacturer at about 20 mil metric tons and their electric arc furnaces rely on scrap. We produce about 50 and import 20 more.

So if you are going with the concept that importing cheap and exporting value added products then you would support this bill.

You can't bull **** someone who actually knows what they're talking about, bull *****er hack.

 

[franklin]

Oh, and BTW, this is probably not much more than Trump trying for leverage on renegotiating NAFTA. Nobody is talking about that angle. Our auto import imbalance is huge from both Canada and Mexico. Why else do you think Trump said he was open to excluding them? (China and increased American steel production are a side benefit).

Also alt, do you think a short term 3 one thousandth increase in the cost of vehicles will really matter?

 

[Siro]

Steel makes up something like a fourth of the car's total cost. Not to forget increased building construction costs and everything else steel is in. Unless the tariffs are defanged by exempting most relevant countries, this will probably be an economic disaster.

Which is okay, since it ensures that xenophobe is not reelected.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Bitch please. You contrdict yourself with #3. Do you know how much raw iron ore we produce compared to Australia? Fortesque alone, a recent startup, already mines 4 times in the Pilbara the amount we do.

We don't have enough supply to meet our demands. Nucor is our largest manufacturer at about 20 mil metric tons and their electric arc furnaces rely on scrap. We produce about 50 and import 20 more.

So if you are going with the concept that importing cheap and exporting value added products then you would support this bill.

You can't bull **** someone who actually knows what they're talking about, bull *****er hack.

You are both right in a sense. Economic interference caused a huge downturn to the production of steel in the U.S. and the 70s and 80s, and outside of putting in some agreements for quotas, (Carter and Reagan IIRC) not much was done. U.S. steel rebounded some, but it is still down something like 300,000 workers compared to the 70s, and the effects completely ruined a few cities. Much of this came from other countries producing steel more efficiently (just like the U.S. helped Toyota, we helped Nippon). So foreign steel, not burdened with outdated equipment and process, were able to undercut us, not to mention foreign subsidies that undercut the world market. It is exactly what China is doing.

Obviously it would be better to have no interference. But we've been dealing with other countries that are very good at manipulating the market.

So yes, the U.S. produces a very small % of total world steel. Part of that is due to interference from other countries. Part of that is our own fault.

So I don't see this as something that will allow us to start exporting steel. It is designed to bring some parity to the steel market without punishing those countries that aren't manipulating the market (the proposal will allow countries exemptions if they can show their steel practices are manipulating the market. There are already exemptions for CA and MX, and there will likely be one for JP and the EU.

Regardless, I do see this as raising prices for consumers.

 

[franklin]

You are both right in a sense. Economic interference caused a huge downturn to the production of steel in the U.S. and the 70s and 80s, and outside of putting in some agreements for quotas, (Carter and Reagan IIRC) not much was done. U.S. steel rebounded some, but it is still down something like 300,000 workers compared to the 70s, and the effects completely ruined a few cities. Much of this came from other countries producing steel more efficiently (just like the U.S. helped Toyota, we helped Nippon). So foreign steel, not burdened with outdated equipment and process, were able to undercut us, not to mention foreign subsidies that undercut the world market. It is exactly what China is doing.

Obviously it would be better to have no interference. But we've been dealing with other countries that are very good at manipulating the market.

So yes, the U.S. produces a very small % of total world steel. Part of that is due to interference from other countries. Part of that is our own fault.

So I don't see this as something that will allow us to start exporting steel. It is designed to bring some parity to the steel market without punishing those countries that aren't manipulating the market (the proposal will allow countries exemptions if they can show their steel practices are manipulating the market. There are already exemptions for CA and MX, and there will likely be one for JP and the EU.

Regardless, I do see this as raising prices for consumers.

The same thing happened with the rise of Japan's auto industry as a competitor, which was heavily subsidized. I'm sure their quick rise in steel production was subsidized as well. Also, one of the main reasons of the US decline that nobody mentions is the slack in demand that post-industrial nations exhibit. Higher income economies use less steel. They also have largely built out their infrastructure. Our industry and the European companies were basically in a boxing match with each other seeing who could outlast the competition in a declining demand environment.

Dumping didn't help. The notion that US should keep taking it on the chin in unfair trade is silly, but it's not something that can't really be discussed on a forum with many never trump members who want any excuse to claim this is the end of the world. The expected immediate increase in auto production is $175/vehicle. Oh my! Who's not going to buy that $50,000 Chevy pickup truck because now it costs $50,175? Or, maybe in a few years it lowers the cost as more steel is made at home and doesn't incur the heavy transportation costs. As Dutch would say, the overreaction to this is a nothing burger.